We’re doing the wiz

 You're listening to Radiotopia Presents from PRX's Radiotopia. Before we start, we wanna recommend a beautiful season of the heart from fellow Radiotopia Caitlyn Press, who's known for exploring big questions, creating cinematic love stories from a feminist perspective. Caitlyn Revisits. No. A series produced on the eve of the Harvey Weinstein scandals about a topic that was supposed to be treated differently forevermore.

In the series, we follow the story of a young girl navigating love, sex, and the word no and all of the men in her life. She tried to say, no, dude. Do you want to start me? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, what were you thinking that you should start? Why don't you lay down? She kind of like. It is like, no, no, like just kind of like a whisper.

I don't know, like kind of keeping it sexy, but like saying like, no, the way that you're touching me makes me feel like as soon as I knew that sex wasn't an option, I became a bit of a dick. Later, I'm gonna have to tell you that I don't wanna have sex with you. I mean, I thought that what she wanted was the same thing as what I wanted.

Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And you know, when it wasn't that way, I felt like I was trying to make it that way. Caitlyn addresses this difficult topic in a way that ends up being heartwarming, soul crushing, and funny. At the same time. Check out the no Series on the Heart everywhere you get podcasts.

Radiotopia Presents is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with auto quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates not available in all states or situations.

Prices vary based on how you buy.

So you know, we've talked to a few people at this point. If you just had to imagine the first minute of the show right now. How do you think the story should start? Hmm. I actually hear your voice talking about, well, you having like an introspective reflection of high school. I.

Hmm. Okay.

High school in my memory. Senior year of high school was a time when you could finally get some control over your life. If you're lucky, maybe you have your own car or a friend as a car. In any case, you can plan your prom night, design your yearbook page, start to make actual decisions about your future.

Yet there is still one wild card you cannot control. It looms over that final year carrying the potential for glory, obscurity, embarrassment, validation, and no, I'm not talking about college applications that can wait. The wild card I'm talking about is the annual high school musical.

Because let's face it, we all have our strengths. We all have the parts. We are kind of cut out for the shows that allow us to shine. If it's fiddler, I'm not an obvious choice for Tevye, but I could manage model the Taylor, and if it's West Side story, I'm kind of screwed because I'm really not much of a dancer.

It's like. Imagine if all the athletes at a school only got to play one sport each year and they had to wait in anticipation to find out which sport it would be. That's what the musical theater kids go through every year. Will it be Chorus Line? Guys and dolls. The music man, lame is hair. Anything could happen in my senior year.

This question took on a kind of weight that none of us could have imagined when we first walked in the door of that school.

My name is Ian Cos. Class of 2006, and this is the story of that production part one, the tofu curtain.

When you meet people out in the world. Who have no idea who you are and where you come from. How do you describe your high school to people? Hmm. Kind of chaotic. I probably use that word a lot. The best experience and a really different experience. Everyone you were about to meet, we all went to high school together, but it wasn't just any high school.

I always describe it like a musical. It was a performing arts high school. There was a dance studio with a wall of mirrors, a theater with real lights. Even back then, I felt like we were. All be famous or we're all gonna be somebody, you know what I'm saying? It, it was just a rockstar school. I think I was also picturing like the fame school in New York and yeah, it was kind of like that school in New York that inspired the 1980 movie musical fame.

But also it wasn't that at all. Not quite. Because instead of being on the upper west side of Manhattan, we were in small town western Massachusetts surrounded by cornfields, a strip mall, and a donut shop with the donut man, or what? What was the name? The donut man? Yeah. In fame. They looked out the window at Lincoln Center.

We looked out the window at the donut Man. But make no mistake, we took ourselves and our dreams very, very seriously.

It was called PVPA, pioneer Valley Performing Arts. P-V-P-A-I usually say has saved my life. Ian, the school was just a few years old when I started there, and you could really feel it. There was no school bus, no cafeteria, no computer lab. There was a gymnasium that had once been part of another school, but the whole inside had been painted black in order to make a theater with the stage built right on the basketball court.

So really no gym either. That theater was the focal point of the school. We'd eat instant noodles for lunch upon the risers. Then we'd crowd onto those same risers every Friday afternoon for open mic. I remember there was this one guy who I swear performed every week an original rap song he had written that week, usually about the girl who had broken his heart that week.

He was quite prolific. You know, I remember the floors always. Why were the floors always 30? The rest of our classes were spread out across a bunch of different buildings that we had to walk between. They had more of like that campus fill. We called it a campus, but I think that word suggests more planning than whatever this was.

The floors were always dirty because we used to have to walk to go to science class, a good five minute walk away, like as a 13-year-old, that should not have been allowed. For example, all the freshman classes were held in a low building, hidden behind the district courthouse, and so every day. The sheriff's van would bring people in for trial handcuffs and all right, next to where we got dropped off for school.

I remember that. Oh my gosh.

The thing about that makeshift campus is that we always had a good reason to just walk out of the building in the middle of the school day. That is how you got to science class. So you didn't need a pass or anything to go to the donut, man. You just went. And again, there was no cafeteria. So if you got tired of buying those styrofoam cups of instant noodles from the school store, sooner or later you went.

And that's what everyone seems to remember most loose organization, the looseness of it all. You know, freedom. Freedom. A freedom that no other school I've ever heard of gave you. The feeling that here anything goes, anything could happen. I don't know if it was a good thing or a bad thing, but it either way.

I liked it

when I was at PVPA. The school was also changing pretty quickly. I think I first realized it when I met Lakia Bailey. Lakia transferred in our sophomore year looking for a fresh start after a truly hellish freshman year of high school. So the year before I started P-V-P-A-I was, I remember taking a, uh, I was in a tub just getting ready for the day, and I had a dog at the time.

My mom sleep in her room. And the dog is just barking, barking, barking, barking. I'm like, shut up. What are you barking at? You know? And then, um, you just kind of smell a smell and that smell got stronger. I'm, now, I'm out the tub and we see the white smoke. So it was a three level house, and we literally stood across the street and watched it just burned down.

And you lost everything, everything, everything. Like I had no clothes to go to school, to the next day. The family spent that year moving between a hotel and a shelter. Leia's mom was also battling depression at the time. Some days she couldn't even get out of bed, and me and my sister are really just trying to make the best of it, but it was, it was hard.

It was very hard. I need, they like the ocean needs the water.

Lakia had sung in church since she was two years old. She's sang at weddings, funerals even performed at a few open mics around town. And one day an older girl she knew, told her about this place called PVPA, and I just remember being so excited to go home and tell my mom, like, Hey, it's a school I can audition for where I can sing.

And, and, and it's like a real high school. My mom didn't believe me. She's like, where and, and how much it cost. You know, PVPA is a public charter school, so it was free. Geographically, at least it wasn't that far away, but even still, it was a leap to even think about going there.

The thing you need to know is that the place we all lived is pretty segregated. Lakia is black, I'm white. We lived maybe 30 minutes apart, but growing up, I didn't spend much time where she lived and she didn't spend much time where I lived in the Pioneer Valley, which again is the PV and PVPA. The dividing line between our worlds was not the railroad tracks or the highway.

It was something much bigger, much more impenetrable. Have you ever heard this? The tofu curtain? This is Kale Weissman. PVPA class of oh seven. I was gonna ask you about the tofu curtain. So, so tell me about it. So, so the tofu curtain, like that's where the liberal bubble is.

The tofu curtain, as it's known, is a string of mountains that divides our valley in half, but also marks a kind of cultural and economic divide in the region. I have no idea how the phrase itself got started, and yes, it is pretty absurd that a staple Chinese food has become a symbol of hippie, crunchy, liberal culture.

But here we are on the north side of the curtain where both kale and I lived. You had the cute college towns. Smith College. Hampshire College, Amherst College. We had an openly lesbian mayor, a bike path, a natural food co-op that yes, sold tofu. It was that kind of place. And so it was really interesting because in one ways we grew up in a very free-thinking liberal.

Sort of environment. You know, it has things like a bumper sticker that says hate has no place here. But at the same time, it's very, very segregated in other ways.

On the other side of the mountain slash curtain, was the city of Springfield best known as the. Birthplace of basketball in 1891, but in the 21st century, Springfield is more known for its struggles. It has the highest violent crime rate of any big city in New England and some of the worst ranked schools.

Those stats aren't the whole story, of course, but for Lakia, they were reality. What was your, the public school in Springfield like that you were coming from? So I went to SciTech Science of, uh, technology. It's a high school and I only went there for a year and I hated going there. I absolutely hated it.

Teachers barely knew your name, you know, large crowds of people. It was every, everywhere was crowded in high school. I can remember just always, you know, finding a spot to just be by myself. I hated it. Lakia told me everything at Cytec felt structured and controlled. For her, it was suffocating. So you can see why she was intrigued by PVPA.

It sounded like an escape. So that same year, her house burned down, she applied, she auditioned, and she got in. Now PVPA was on the tofu side of the tofu curtain in a small farming town called Hadley. Getting there from Springfield would not be easy, and Leia's mom was in no position to drive her. The family was barely holding it together as it was, but I've just always kind of been that person that takes on anything.

Like I have a kind of a spiritual background, so, um, me starting that school I knew was. Meant to be. And as it turned out, fate opened a door, a big yellow door. Could you tell me about the bus that you took to school? Like how did you get to Hadley? Um, so I would have to take a city bus to downtown. So we would go there and then we would wait for the big yellow bus.

This bus is really what sets our whole story in motion. Now, I know a big yellow school bus is like the most normal, average school thing you can possibly imagine, but remember, this is not a normal school. I never once rode a yellow school bus. What I didn't know then was that right around the time I started at PVPA, the school was also starting an experiment, a busing program.

This was not court ordered desegregation or anything. It was a voluntary program run by the school, but that was the intent to make the school less white. And this bus started its journey in downtown Springfield that was literally like all the black kids, um, bus stop. And we all were cool. We all had the same mindset, like, like we knew.

That it was a, a great opportunity. Like we knew that back then we would talk about it all the time amongst ourself to get out of the schools you're in, to get out of Springfield. So PVPA was like, it changed my life because I'm like, God is blessing me now. You know, I noticed when this bus started showing up in the morning, and I definitely noticed the kids getting off of it because really.

I mean, it's not like there were zero black kids before, but it was a very small number. I remember counting. It was literally only like six of us. Literally when I walked in, I was the only person that looked like me. Brittany Beman, also class of oh six transferred in that same year. Mm. 30 minutes into orientation.

Lakia walks in and I'm like, thank you, God. I. Thank you Jesus. Oh Lord.

And that, that was a new experience for you to be in this overwhelmingly white environment like that. Yeah. Honestly, because I, all I knew was, you know, me and my community and the little brown girls that I danced with, you know, um, I didn't know other people was out here, pop locking. It was a, it was really a shock.

Were there like weird things about white people that you'd never realized before until you saw so many of us. It's like, oh, that's what they eat for lunch. This is hilarious because Yes, of course.

So Brittany and Lakia were now part of this little cohort of black students bused in from Springfield. They showed up to. Together, they hung together. There were a sign of more changes to come, a chance for all of us to get a peek at the other side of the curtain.

Now, at a performing arts high school, the social cliques are a little different than a regular high school. The only competitive sports team was ultimate Frisbee, unless you count the mock trial team as a sport. But in either case. Jocks were not really a thing. The real divide at PVPA was the different disciplines.

We each had to declare a concentration sophomore year, and then we'd spend a lot of our time separated out doing our Shakespeare or our jazz acapella. Really, the one time we all came together to make a single statement was the musical musicians filled out the pit painters created the scenery, actors and dancers took the stage.

That year, Lakia and Brittany transferred in. We did Guys and Dolls. I played one of the three gangsters who opened Act One with a song debating which horse to bet on at the racetrack. Biggest part I'd ever gotten. Lakia and Brittany were not in that one. In fact, I don't think there was a single non-white lead in that show.

Then the next year, the great and mystical powers of the school announced that our collective statement would be fame.

That was our junior year, and it was the most obvious on-brand choice possible. A bunch of high schoolers dreaming of being big stars. It was us.

But just as we were gearing up to do that show, something happened at PVPA, it was another performance really, and it changed how all. All of us saw our school.

Hello. To set up this next part of the story, I want to go back to my very first phone call with Lakia back before I even knew if I would make this show, and I was just trying to track people down. When she picked up the phone, it was the first time we'd spoken for almost 20 years. Hey there, uh, it's Ian.

Hey, how are you, Ian? I'm doing all right. How are you? I'm good. Long time no here. I know. Right. When I started reaching out to my classmates from PVPA, I was curious to hear how they remembered our school and also a little nervous. I mean, that place was truly a dream for me, but I had the feeling there was more going on than what I saw or chose to see.

You know, we would act different when we were, so we spent some time catching up, laughing about the stuff we both remembered, like the donut man, oh my God. It was a donut shop across the street from the first building, but then the memory kind of veered off from mine. And Lakia started talking about how the staff would watch her wear when she came in the door and how her mom told her not to go back there.

My mom was like, don't go nowhere, but to the school, you know, like, you know, because she knew I'm an inner city kid and I. It was obvious that it wasn't a lot of black people in that area. Not to say it was weird to hear all this because if I had gone to downtown Springfield as a teenager, my parents would probably have told me to be careful.

Stick to the places I know, and here was Leia's mom telling her the same thing about my side of the mountain. Be careful over there. You know? It's just a caution thing. Yeah. You know, were there. Moments like that at school, like where the, the school itself felt segregated and just like not a comfortable place to be.

Oh God. Um, it wasn't many times, it was one time when Lakia mentioned this one time, I was pretty sure I knew what she was talking about. I vaguely remembered that something had happened in a history class once some students were upset. And to be honest, it wasn't that big a deal for me. I wasn't even planning to ask Lakia about it.

But here's the thing, how are you doing? How are you so good to see you. You look the same. When I reached out to another black student who I knew from PVPA named Sakina Ibrahim, she mentioned the exact same story again, unprompted, and then I re, I remember there was some kind of social studies project and it was a shit show.

After that, I started asking about it, and it's still fuzzy with me, but, um, the exact assignment was, it was an impersonation contest and we were studying the Gilded Age, an impersonation contest. The thing about PVPA was that we were always performing in our regular classes. I did an interpretive dance once about osmosis, a song about Andrew Jackson, and this assignment was one of those.

So I was not in this history class, but Lakia was, and Kale, the tofu curtain guy. He was too. And so it was, choose an historic important figure from the Gilded Age. And then we're gonna have, uh, impersonations where people act like who they were. Everybody had to pick a character. Yes. Did you have a character?

I think I was like, um, the, what is her name? Lakia did a quick search on her phone to remember who it was she played. It was Madam CJ Walker. Who is Madam CJ Walker. Really? Ian. Well, you know, for, you know my memory well, she was for listeners to the podcast. Absolutely. So she was a US entrepreneur. Um, she built a successful hair care business.

In 1906 with her wonderful hair grower to treat black women's hair. So that was Lakia. And I remember overhearing they, because the people would talk about what they were gonna dress up as people were saying that they're gonna come in as certain characters.

And what historical character did you pick? I chose DW Griffith, the um, director and writer of the movie, birth of A Nation. The Birth of a Nation, in case you don't know, is a groundbreaking early film. It is also terribly viciously racist. And then there were other people who chose other arguably more offensive people to be.

So there was a, without naming names, there was a clan robe involved. I've, I've honestly blocked this out, but I believe someone wore white.

Everyone ran their characters by the teacher. The teacher approved. To go back to our earlier point about the Pioneer Valley and how it's very worldly, but also very insulated. I think that that gives teachers, and especially like 13-year-old students, the thought that, like for educational purposes, well, if we're talking about it, then it's good that, I think this was a really good example of that.

Where it was like, yeah, I'm white. I can talk about racism. Look why, like, but, but I'm on the right side.

The contest took place at the very end of the semester. I. It was the culmination of research and work the class had been doing for months. So students from other classes were invited to come watch the audience filled up the back of the room, and the performers all sat in a semicircle at the front. Then one at a time, they got up to make a short speech as their character.

The twist was that just like the ensemble members in a play, the students were also instructed to remain in character during the whole show. And we were like sort of all performing like how we would interact with each other at the time. And I think the teacher thought, this is great, but it made for some tense interactions.

I remember there was me, there was this other person who was playing the KKK, and then there was another person who was playing a black tap dancer. When that student playing the Black Tap dancer got up to perform kale as the filmmaker, along with the other student, as the clan member, they started to heckle behaving just as they imagined those historical figures would've behaved if they were actually together in that room.

For some students watching from the back, it was an absurd and entertaining scene. They laughed out loud, but not everyone, it was just one of them things that just felt really uncomfortable for me in a predominantly white school. It just felt like, this doesn't feel like this should be happening, or if it is happening, there should be some sort of like conversation, you know, or some sort of acknowledgement of.

My feelings, you know, because I do, um, have ancestors who, you know, it's, it, it, it's, it's a long line of just a can of worms that really shouldn't be played with, you know, and I feel like it was being toyed with. Lakia, by the way, she never got up to perform her character. She never got to tell her classmates about Madam CJ Walker, the self-made millionaire, the black entrepreneur, Lakia, walked out of class because I didn't want to, um, be the angry black girl in the class.

You know, that's a real thing. So I'm already big, I'm already black, you know, so I'm like, let me. Kind of remove myself and talk it out with somebody. And when I told my mom about it, she is like, what? Hell no, that's not okay.

The class itself was upsetting, but it's what happened after that really left a lasting mark. PVPA was a small school, just a few hundred kids. So word of this incident got around fast. It was almost like a scene out of a movie for real low key leia's friend Brittany was actually in the next building over the gym turned theater, right when that period let out, everybody came running in like, like, you know, can't believe this, da, da da.

And then when I went outside to go see that, sure enough. They was coming up out of the class like that. I was like, Ooh. Because they were still in costume. Yeah, they were still in costume and I was just like, oh, wow. They really had it on. Within three hours, the head of the school got a call from the town manager asking why the local NBC news station was doing a piece about PVPA hosting a clan rally.

Then when the TV news crew eventually did arrive, they filmed parents protesting outside the school demanding that the teacher be fired. Fired Kale remembers feeling confused by it all. Like I, at the time, I did not really understand the gravity of it, and Lakia felt kind of conflicted about all the attention.

Like she wanted there to be a conversation, but she wasn't trying to get anyone punished or fired. She actually loved that teacher. She was really a great teacher. She was really a great teacher. So when she was getting like this heat, I would just remember feeling. Super, super terrible. Meanwhile, the school entered damage control mode.

As Kale recalls, the teacher denied. She even knew what characters the students were gonna perform that day. So now it was all on them. And I remember feeling very much in the dark and like they just tried to sort of throw it under the rug.

I knew Kale pretty well in high school. I also knew the student who wore the clan robe. We were good friends actually. So I think my instinct at the time, and probably a lot of the other white students too, was to sympathize with them. The people in those costumes, like yes, they could have been more sensitive about it, but it was just a performance, right?

They were acting and like Kale said, we here in the Pioneer Valley. We were supposed to be on the right side of history. I mean, we had protested the Iraq war. Our parents had voted for John Kerry, Barack Obama had just made his big debut at the Democratic National Convention in our home state, and now suddenly we all carry racism within us too.

Nobody wanted to hear that. And Lakia, she could feel it. I really tried to forget it 'cause it was embarrassing to me. It was painful to realize this, that kale was open and ready to talk about the history class incident, and Lakia was not. I had expected the opposite, but somehow Lakia was the one who felt most embarrassed by it.

It was embarrassing. Why is it embarrassing to you? Because it was some people who felt like we did too much, just overhearing rumors and stuff like that. Yeah. Like there were students who felt like you sort of like blown it up or made it bigger than it needed to be. Oh, for sure. Yeah. A lot of people really.

So I just wanted it to go away. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did it change the way you felt about the school? Yeah, um, it did. So initially starting the school it was. Great opportunity. I'm happy to be here, da da da. But then I, I think when that happened, it was like, don't get too comfortable. Eventually there was an all school assembly in that gymnasium turned theater where all the students split up into tables to talk about race.

For many of us white kids, it was our first try at the now familiar exercise of hashing out our privilege in a structured setting. Although, I don't know if we even talked about white privilege in 2004, and I'm like, y'all are wearing K, K, K costumes. Y'all are crazy. So I ain't got nothing. I didn't have anything to say.

Sakina Ibrahim, who we heard just a bit of before, was new to the school. Then in fact, she transferred in partway through that school year, right around when all this took place. She was also from Springfield, also rode the big yellow bus, and this was her introduction to PVPA. I remember being at my table 'cause they separated us into smaller groups and I was sharing my experience in dance class, you know, being the only black girl and feeling othered and it kind of being laughed at, you know?

And I never thought it was fair to have to be the one to shoulder it and explain it to people who didn't give a fuck. Sakina remembers just leaning back in her chair during that assembly and putting on a pair of big, dark sunglasses. I was just like, y'all, I don't care. It's evident. One of the teachers said she looked like Angela Davis back in the 1960s when she was with the Black Panthers, but we didn't study much black history, and Sina had never heard of Angela Davis.

It wasn't clear if that comparison was meant as a compliment or not. I just put my sunglasses on

and it's like I'm just gonna block it out and, and cope and survive.

Fame went up as planned that year in the same gymnasium. Turn theater with the stage on the basketball court. As usual, we put on a good show the next year, though word once again came down from on high. Our school musical had been selected. And it was a different kind of show. I don't know if it was meant as a symbol, an olive branch, a path towards healing, a PR stunt.

But our collective statement, the ultimate senior year wild card would be.

The wheels.

Yes, the wiz. As in the Soul musical adaptation of The Wizard of Oz, which debuted on Broadway in 1975 with an all black cast and was later turned into a movie starring Diana Ross and Michael Jackson.

We PVPA, were putting on an Afrocentric Afrofuturist retelling of one of America's most enduring stories. And everyone we've heard from so far. Would be part of it. Me, Lakia, kale, Brittany Sakina, even the kid who wore the clan robe, all of us.

So maybe, um. Big picture. Now that we've done one episode, how are you feeling about it? I feel like when this process first began, I was very uncertain of the story we would be telling, and so I've just been on the journey learning and observing, and now that we have. Episode one done. I feel like it came with a price, a sacrifice of my voice and point of view.

And so when I was listening, I was like, I feel like he's talking for me. Hmm. And that like brought a thing up for me. Yeah. And I was like, no. Like it was a hard stop. It was a hard stop where I was like, no, I worked so hard to find my voice. And so I was like, oh, we're not going to be passive 'cause I have something I wanna say

still to come. Teachers tell us about what was happening behind the scenes. I think it came down to appearances. I honestly do students prepare for auditions? Who else was gonna give Dorothy? Like, I didn't have no choice, but she really didn't have no choice. And we all wonder who should take center stage.

I mean. I should not feel like I have the, the authority to tell every story from Radiotopia presents. This is, we're doing the Wiz.

We are doing. The Wiz is created and produced by Sakina Ibrahim and myself, Ian Koss. Our story editor is Aaron Edwards. The managing producer is Yuri Losordo, and the executive producer is Audrey Marvi. The series is made possible in part by a grant from Mass Humanities, which provide. Funding through the Massachusetts Cultural Council we're doing The Wiz as part of Radiotopia Presents a podcast feed that debuts limited run artist owned series from new and original voices.

Learn more about we're doing The Wiz and Access transcripts at Radiotopia Presents fm, and discover more shows from across the Radiotopia network. At Radiotopia fm.

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So I think the question at hand is, uh, who's gonna narrate what parts of this story?

When my classmate and now co-producer Ian Cos approached me about this idea to tell the story of our high school production of The Wiz, I had no idea what to expect. I thought he would just interview me, but he asked me to join the show's creative team. We shared notes about our time at PVPA, did interviews with our classmates and teachers together, but there was always that question in the back of our minds, the same question that loomed over our high school production.

Who should tell this story? And I always felt that it was going to unfold and become something different. Yeah. Than just telling the story of that time our high school did The Wiz. Right. So that's part of why I didn't feel like so attached of like, I need to start. Mm-hmm. And this is what, you know, I went through, I felt like we would.

Find the story in the process, so, so what is it that we're finding now, or what is it that you're finding now about like how we approach this next step in the process? Well, I wanted to share this with you 'cause it gets a little too deep. Yeah, yeah. I was talking to my aunt. She has no idea that we're doing this project.

Mm-hmm. Only my mother and also has no idea about the experience at PVPA with, uh, the KKK impersonation. And so we were just talking through some family stuff and she shared with me that I had an uncle and an aunt who died. Hmm. And so the story. With my uncle, my grandmother's brother, was that he was shot and killed by the K, K, K.

Wow. And left in the woods. Where was this? This is in Florida. Wow. And we continued talking and she was explaining to me, I always knew that who would be my great aunt? Died in a fire. But what I did not know, and I just found out last week, was that the house was set on fire by the K, KK. Wow. And so my skin is so hot because that's not something I knew about my direct.

Ancestry. Yeah. And lineage. So now I feel like I have a different, a heightened level of responsibility. Mm. In making sure that in the stories that I tell and the stories that I'm a part of. That I tell the truth from my perspective and in honor of my ancestors. So that's what I'm kind of sitting with now in terms of process of like, make sure when you speak yeah.

You know exactly what it is that you're trying to say. Yeah. There's something there about the power of the story not being lost. That is a reminder too, like don't miss a chance to tell your story because it could matter to somebody else more than you know.

I grew up in Springfield with my mother and brother in a three family walkup apartment next door live. My great-aunt, great-grandmother, and a bunch of cousins. I never ever heard about the tofu curtain. All I knew was Springfield. A place where we walked to the local Jamaican restaurant to get a $4 snack pack of curvy chicken and rice where I'd have friends over for dance sessions.

I. And yeah, from the outside looking in, US kids may not have had a lot of material things, but what we did have was loyalty and respect. We had each other at PVPA, I had none of that.

Imagine walking into school and feeling hated. The strange looks being ignored. When you say good morning to your classmates, how guarded that can an already hormonal and confused teenager feel?

So soon after transferring to this new school, there was that emergency as. Assembly, the school organized to talk about race. I wasn't interested in participating. I sat in the back of the auditorium with my sunglasses on, you know, I felt like it wasn't my problem. I was there to chase my own dreams, not to pick up the pieces of a mess I didn't create.

But when PVPA announced it was doing the Wizz, my feelings were different. Now, this was a story I can relate to. And auditions. Were just around the corner.

My name is Sina Ibrahim, class of 2007, and this is, we are doing The Wiz part two, the Black Wizard of Oz.

To tell you the truth, I have never finished the original Wizard of Oz, the one with Judy Garland. I fell asleep. So in high school, my only point of reference for the Land of Oz was the Wiz. Hey fellas, it's today. Today. You gonna help me get down from here? Help you down, man. What is going down in that hayloft?

You call ahead. My favorite scene is when Michael Jackson, who plays the Scarecrow and Diana Ross, who's Dorothy meet for the first time. I gotta sing that thing again. You gotta look to you again. It's the crows, the choreography in that entire scene is on point

for a little black girl. Seeing yourself on film, TV or stage means everything. I'm on my way to find the wiz. He's gonna get me back home. Well, that's nice. Thank you and good luck. Watching a character you identify with go on a journey struggle. I thought maybe, maybe you could get your brain and ultimately find their way is powerful.

It teaches you that your story matters. That you belong in a world of imagination. At least that's what the WHI meant to me.

It wasn't a part of my like cultural. Iconography, is that a word? Danny Plimpton class of 2008 Might have just made that up, but um, it wasn't something you had grown up with. No, certainly not the movie. I'll be honest, I did not know much about The Wiz before I was in it. And again, kale Weissman class of 2007.

I mean, this is really outing myself and like making me seem so ignorant, but like I knew it was a version of The Wizard of Oz that had Michael Jackson and Diana Ross in it. Like that was liter. That was literally it. It just wasn't that serious for the white kids. It was just another show. It was just another show.

It just wasn't that serious. Okay, cool. Mm-hmm. So opposite for us, for the black cast members. For us, it was very serious. Do you remember how you heard that We were doing The Wiz? It was like a rumor about it. Yeah. And then once they confirmed it. It was on and popping Lakia Bailey class of 2006 because regardless of what the school thought they were doing, the Wiz for me is an iconic stage play.

I want my hand in it play. An iconic stage play. Our white classmates might not have known what they were about to step into, but to take you into it, I knew just the person to talk to.

Am I here? Yes. There I am. Yeah. You sound great. There I am. That's Mark Allen Davis. I first met him when he came in as a guest choreographer to work with our dance company. Are you gonna sing for us? Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I was the only black girl in the dance company, and Mark brought a whole new energy teaching us this piece to Baby.

I'm a Star by Prince. I remember I wrote that song's title on the stage at PVPA. A message to myself and anyone else who found it to believe in yourself no matter what. I remember your choreography. Hold on, hold on. Uhoh, it just came to me doing Mark's choreography was the first time PVPA felt like it had any real flavor.

That's all I remember. I stole, I stole that step from my dance mama. Hey, and I just look me over. Tell me, do you like what you see? You see? Alright, girl. Yes. It was really important for me to interview Mark because aside from being the only African American teacher I worked with at PVPA, he is also a black study scholar and an original cast member of The Lion King.

The man is Broadway Royalty, the name of my memoir. One of my memoirs is going to be, I was the lead zebra bitch, but before all that, mark was a black kid in New York in the 1970s. The post civil rights movement into the Black Power Movement, the Black Panthers, all of that, and all this black art and celebration was right as I was a kid.

This was a pivotal time in Black American history known as the Black Arts Movement, and this was the era that The Wiz was born out of. Say, what time is it Nation time and what's gonna happen? The land's gonna change hands. I'm curious, like do like what's your understanding of the Black Arts movement? Oh, the black arts movement took place starting in the sixties.

And so you had black artists predominantly in New York, uh, Mary Baraka, Barbara Anier, mm-hmm. Who were drawing back. To Africa and Afro centrism Santa Claus. Get up. Ro Wilkins, get up. Diana Ross, get up. Jimmy Brown. It's nation time building. Get up.

And it was very loud. It was very political because there was a political movement behind, you know, the arts movement, right? All of these things we do in a different, unique, specific way that is personally ours. You have to, Dr. Tier says Dec crud yourself from aspects of your American identity and really find.

Your identity as an African because they are viewing us through their eyes, not through our eyes. So it was a big deal. Yeah. So to me, black art was just as relevant if not more relevant than anything else around and around that time, Broadway was becoming more. Open to the black body on stage. Goodbye.

In 1967, there was an all black staging of the hit musical Hello Dolly, starring Pearl Bailey. Same show, just with an all black cast. And it was another smash hit, which led to hair opening on Broadway and then pearly. And then, don't bother me, I can't cope. I've gotta keep moving.

So in that 1970s moment when a public affairs director for a radio station in New York who had no experience producing musical theater hatched the idea of an all black Wizard of Oz, the Broadway powers that Be Said, yes. Let's do it,

and in January of 1975, the Wiz opened on Broadway. Do you remember how it made you feel? Like, did you have a visceral experience? Oh, of course. And one of the, my memories of seeing the Wiz was during the tornado ballet, the taking a part of the porch from the house, which goes off into the wing. And then they all the dancers grab onto the porch and spin Dorothy around on the porch.

Bot mine and layouting and fan kicking and twirling, and undulating. It's all central. All these beautiful black bodies. I'm just like, Ooh, okay. Yes, we are home. This is exactly what needs to be.

It was unbelievable. And for Mark, seeing that show in its original time and place left an impression that The Wiz is not just any show, that it carries a special kind of weight. Even a responsibility. Why does it even exist? Why are black people even here in America, you know, if you, if you really want to do a show like The Wiz and if you make a decision to do it, 'cause it's a pretty show and it's fun and wicked was so popular, you know, let's do it.

Eat, don't do it.

Well, I was gonna ask, do you think that it matters if, uh, all white schools or integrated schools do do The Wiz? I don't really think it's about the race of Dorothy. I think it's about the people that wanna do the show and what their intent is in doing it. Hmm.

So if you're gonna do something like The Wiz in this day and age, you really need to think about it.

Who decides what the school musical is? Is there like a committee, is there a one person decides? How did it work? So what would happen is Mitch Shakur was the musical director at PVPA. It was usually, uh, Brian and Jody and I, Brian and Jody were the theater and dance directors. So music, dance, and theater, music, dance and theater.

So we would get together and we would name a few shows. You know, would say, okay, how about this one? Well, what are the strengths? Who do we have that could do this? Who do we have? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're weighing like, oh, you know, is there a nice ensemble part? Are there good, like female parts, male parts?

Is it appropriate? All of that stuff. Then began the haggling. Well, I have a lot of strong actors, so I don't want to have hard singing stuff or I have a lot of strong dancers that need to be in this show. I remember of Chorus Line, man, I felt like a therapist because the dance instructor wanted to do Chorus Line.

That was a fight and a half. Oh my gosh. Mitch as the music director was often kind of passive in these fights. He was more invested in his own ensemble groups than in the big school musical. Some years he wouldn't even lead the pit band for it. He'd farm the gig out to another musician in town. I don't really like musicals, so Mitch would mostly play therapist for the other directors peacemaker.

But at the start of the 2005 school year. Something changed.

I was, you know, I was just floating around and Alicia said, we have to do the Wiz. Alicia is Mitch's daughter, Alicia Shakur. Yeah. Let's hear from some other folks. Let's get, let's get some other faces and voices and stories up front and center. Alicia had gone to PVPA. In fact, it was while she was there that her dad, Mitch, who is a well-known local musician, started teaching at the school in the first place.

At that time, PVPA was even wider than what Sakina and I experienced. The Shakur's are Syrian American and Alicia remembers as a young person getting cast as a Latina and a Vietnamese woman, basically whatever non-white character the show happened to call for no roles that I would take today. Alicia graduated from PVPA right before I started there, but in 2005, while she was in college studying dance, she volunteered to choreograph that year's musical.

You know, when you're that age, people could be like, oh, you know, wanna lose it. Coming back to school, you know, alum, just like right back in there. But for me, I was hoping, you know, if I can support its transition. I was excited to do that. That transition Alicia is talking about was the busing program, the demographic change, that slow diversification of the school and the musical she pushed for would speak to that change.

Her dad was immediately on board as soon as Alicia said The Wiz. I'm sure that Jodi and Brian said other shows, I don't even remember one word of a show they said. I said, no, no, no, no. The Wiz, but, but, but, but I said Stop you in a motorboat. The Wiz. We're doing The Wiz. I did one of those. Yep. I'm outta here.

But the debate over the show was not over yet. I think part of the pushback against it was we don't know how to do this kind of musical. You know, if you have a Shakespearean director directing the Wiz, but trying to keep it authentic, that's gonna be tough. Hmm. Do you think it was a desire to sort of.

Protect the safety and um, maybe the image of, of it being a white school. I, I would have to say, I have to say no 'cause I would really hope no, but I think maybe for people's comfort level of what they can do and what they feel they can contribute. I know. How about Fiddler around the roof? I can do that one, right.

I can choreograph them, I can direct that. So it was, it was part of it I think was an unknown part of it at that time too, was, well, are we appropriating anything by doing this? And there were a lot of these questions going on, uh, and I just wanted to do it. A few years earlier, a nearby high school caused a whole controversy by trying to stage West Side story again in a very white town.

There was so much outcry. The school ended up canceling the production a few months before it opened, and quickly staged a different show. So you can see why there was some hesitation among the teachers at PVPA, especially after the history class incident the year before. Mitch would have to put them at ease.

I said, Brian, you, you know how to help people act. That's all that it is. You need to do the rest of it will really take care of itself. Eventually his colleagues did come around. They were on board to do The Wiz, and there was just one last hurdle. The show had to have a black member on the creative team, and that's sort of what.

Came down from the top. Oh really? Oh yeah. That we need this. And I said, okay, I get it. And do you think that came down out of self-protection? Or do you think it came down out of like a desire to do justice to the show?

I think it came down to appearances. Yeah. I. I honestly do. Once again, Alicia was ready with an answer. The mechanics of this might be fuzzy, but um, you know, for one, I was at Smith and I was working with Mark, Mark Allen Davis. Mark Allen Davis, who he met earlier was in 2005 teaching dance at nearby Smith College, where Alicia was also studying and he had done some guest teaching at PVPA already.

So somehow Alicia told me she was gonna be choreographing the Wiz and Yeah, come on, come on over. Alicia and Mark would be co choreographers, sign me up. And with that, the show was officially on. But this whole idea of doing The Wiz was built on the belief that the school had the diversity and the talent to actually do it right, and that belief would face its first test in the auditions.

It's now the fall of 2005, my senior year. The play has been announced and Lakia Bailey is taking it very seriously. Even though you auditioned, it was some politic into it. You had to kind of get in good with certain teachers and stuff like that. We're not gonna act like that didn't exist 'cause it did.

So I got smart and I started politicking. That meant showing her face more in the right rooms, saying hi to the theater director, letting it be known how she thought the show should be cast, and Lakia wasn't just thinking about her own part. It was only a few of us, so we kind of amongst ourself delegated parts.

Well, like you coordinated among the black students so you're not competing with each other. Exactly. Because we were all friends and it was a lot of our last year. Kia is a drill sergeant. That's what y'all don't know about Kia. Brittany Beaman also class of 2006 would take some convincing. I wasn't gonna audition for The Wiz because I don't sing.

Oh, I didn't know that girl. Yeah, it was Kia. Tell like, no, you gotta do something. I remember like us talking Brittany into it, like, no, you gotta be in the play. I was cool with just being like a little flying monkey or something and she was like, no, you need a part. We're all gonna audition. It was like that.

Here is the plan. Lakia would try for evil, lean the wicked witch of the west because that's a real singer's part. And Kia, she has the voice for it. Brittany would go for Aada Pearl, the good witch of the north, because even though that character has a song, it's also a comedic role. And if you can't tell, Britney is funny as shit.

Then another black student named Trevin was a natural for the tin man. He was tall and lean, a great singer and just a real class act, but the whole plan hinged on a young and untested rising star at the school. We knew Sina was Dorothy. Y'all just didn't know it. Who else was gonna give Dorothy? Like, I didn't have no choice, but she really didn't have no choice.

There was a lot of pressure from the other black kids in school for me to audition for Dorothy. I danced, I sang, I acted, and I kind of remember feeling a bit cornered. They were like, you are going for Dorothy. This is our show. And you better not let that other girl get it.

So tell me about your competition. Oh, she was. The musical theater princess of the school. She had an incredible, well-trained voice. She was confident. Her mother was at school every day. I was like, where? Why does this lady have a job? Why is she always here overshadowing and overseeing that things worked in the favor of her beautifully well-trained daughter.

And we should clarify that the, uh, musical theater princess you refer to is white. She's blonde hair and blue eye white.

So I felt like I had a lot to prove, like this was our show. That was the feeling. We worked hard on the audition material. I. Lakia and Trevin would take me to the dance studio during lunch to practice the big ballad at the end of the show called Home. When I think of home, I think of a place where there love overflow.

I grew up watching the movie with Diana Ross, and I was also familiar with singer Stephanie Mills. She played Dorothy in the original Broadway production, and my mom loved her. So the song home was already in my head, but it has this one high note at the end that's really hard to hit. It's also a total crowd pleaser.

At the time of the audition, did you think you'd get the part of Dorothy? Uh, it was 50 50. Sometimes people try to make it seem just about race, but it doesn't work that way. You have to be able to carry the part. The art is the art. The gift is the gift, right? Could the girl sing? And I think that's why you were put in such a, like a high pressure, delicate situation where it's clear.

In hindsight that everybody wanted you to be Dorothy, and that's not just your peers. I mean, I think it was kind of the whole school was counting on you to fulfill the vision of this show so that we could all say, yeah, like we did the show. Right? Because Sina is playing Dorothy, not the other girl, but you still had to live up to it, right?

I had to show up and that is. My first singing audition ever. So yes, I had to fight for it.

Finally, audition day rolled around. I. Danny Plimpton turned out, I have a memory of it being on the second floor in like classrooms that were opened up, like it wasn't even in a theater space or a dance space. For the auditions. Mitch played piano. Alicia, mark, and the theater director Brian watched I. As students got up one at a time in front of everyone else to sing, Kia sang no bad news, the big number for Eine, and she killed it.

The Kia was feeling so confident that when she got called back up to read for the part of on M, she kind of half-assed it. So after that, the director just kept having Kia read for Eviling, so I, I was like, check, I got it. He don't want me nowhere else. Brittany, with some help from Kia had picked out a Lauryn Hill song that felt like a good fit for her voice and mind.

You still got to the audition and sounded horrible, I think. Forgot the song, forgot the lyrics. It all. Like she was like, girl, how we practicing? You still messing up. So Brittany was a maybe girl, tragic, then there was kale, and I knew that if I was to get any leading role, it would have to be the lion. I know we met kale in the context of that awful history class.

But he was also a good singer and a total ham. Like the Tin Man I always assumed was a a tall, skinny person. Like this seemed like the one role I could really get as a chubby kid. Danny read for a few characters, but he had a good feel for the scarecrow. Just sort of like exploring looseness and movement.

And again, our classmate Trevin went for the Tin Man. He already had the stiff motions down and everything, which of course left me.

And your competition for Dorothy is in that room with you. She had to be the other girl, trained, poised, beautiful blonde. She was very good. The one you expected to get the big parts. And it was her senior year and she, you know, hit all her notes and did a lovely job. But I. You know, there's something to be said about hunger.

I was hungry and so I, I remember the feeling in my stomach. Ugh. It was just all kinds of butterflies, you know, nerves. I.

I could feel a lump in my throat. I wanted to take a sip of water, but I was so nervous. I was worried I would pee on myself. So I opened my mouth to sing, and for a moment I felt like I was soaring.

When I think of home, I think of a place. Where there's love over flowing, but there was still that last big note. When a singer approaches a high note, they can either take it soft and safe using what's called a head voice. Or go for the full throated belt, even if you don't know what I'm talking about.

You've definitely heard it.

I remember the thought in my head. Of go for the belt. Sakina was planning to play it safe. Instead, she went for it and I'm like, ah, you, you might crack, but just go for it.

And so I scream.

Everyone clapped, but Mitch and Alicia whispered something to each other, making me feel like I lost it. And I remember walking out of the room and Trevon going, baby, what happened? And I just fell into his arms. I said, I messed up. He was disappointed. Yes, because we worked on this and I felt. Embarrassed that I failed in front of my friends.

That's what I felt.

It was like in between classes. I wanna say. I, I saw Brian coming and, and taping it up to the wall and it, it felt like a scene out of fame. It really did.

And did everyone like rush up to the bulletin board and crowd around? Pretty much. They didn't even let me get to the casting sheet myself. You know, I just see Trevon's. Running down the hallway like, you did it. You did it. And I'm like, what? Just saying your name next to apart. That was a great feeling.

Lakia was Eviling. Trevin, the 10 man. Kale was the lion, Danny the Scarecrow, and I was Dorothy. Brittany would even make her comedic debut as Add Pearl Dang. Nah. Nah, I really gotta do it for real. Oh, in the musical theater Princess, she was cast as on and as the yellow brick road, which was staged as three doo-wop girls singing background vocals.

We asked Mitch afterwards what was going on in that casting room if it really was a close call for Dorothy, and if it did ultimately come down to race. He said, if Sakina had been J. Alright. And the white girl was great. That would've been a hard call. Mm-hmm. And I'm glad I didn't have to make that. But I, in Sina, I heard, I heard stuff in there that I knew she didn't even know she had.

In fact, I do remember talking to Alicia about it. I said, she has got a lot in there. She said, I know she doesn't even know.

Don't think there was much arguing. I was just like, it's aina. Please Mark Allen Davis. The choreographer said there was no doubt for him. I don't know for sure, but. I felt like I had an angel in the room fighting for me. Uh, I think you have a fairy godfather.

Getting this part meant everything to me. I was the lead in an iconic musical, but dreams. They don't come without us.

That year I started dating and yes, he was a white boy, and as rehearsals got underway, people started gossiping. The pressure of the show was building. Grades were slipping and I had just about had it. What happened next would threaten our entire show because, you know, Zak's from Springfield. Okay.

Like, you know, don't underestimate her because she's so sweet. That's in part three.

We're doing. The Wiz is created and produced by myself, Sina Ibrahim and Ian Ko. Our story editor is Aaron Edwards. The managing producer is Yuri Losordo, and the executive producer is Audrey Markovich. The series is made possible in part by a grant from Mass Humanities. Which provided funding through the Massachusetts Cultural Council.

I just wanna say there is so much more to the origin story of the original Wizz production than we had time for in this episode. It could be its own podcast, hopefully it will be, but for now, we at least wanna recognize a few legends from that production. The one of a kind costume designer who then jumped into directing the show at the last minute was Jeffrey Holder, the choreographer who became the first African American to win a Tony for best choreography was George Faison.

And the man at the radio station with the big vision who started it all was Ken Harper. But those are just a few names. We have to acknowledge the long, long list of creators, contributors, and cast members. Thank you for what you've done for this production to live on and happy 50th anniversary. We're doing.

The Wiz is part of Radiotopia Presents a podcast feed that debuts limited run artist owned series from new and original voices. Learn more about we're doing The Wiz and Access transcripts at Radiotopia Presents fm, and discover more shows from across the Radiotopia network at Radiotopia fm.

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Rehearsals began in early 2006, junior year. For me, it was late nights learning my lines for the show, going over dance steps and stage blocking again and again, trying to stay positive and trying to help the cast stay positive too, especially my friend Brittany. She was playing Adi Pearl, the good witch of the North, and I won't lie, she was struggling.

My favorite line is great Gga moga, sugar booga. Can you please, and I know you hated saying it when I tell you I hate it so bad. 'cause I hate to fumble over my words, period. So to say something like that, I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna mess this up.

Brittany was my homegirl and I really needed her at school and throughout this entire process, but she barely wanted to be in the show. I'm gonna be honest, A lot of the rehearsals, I was not there. So half the time at rehearsal I would be like, where the fuck is at a pearl? But can you just give us the context for that line again and don't get me the line?

I don't know. Um, oh my God. So Dorothy arrives in. In the Land of Oz. Yeah. The Munchkins are giving her a hard time. Add. Apro shows up and so she goes, now you have to say it, but No, I don't. She's so shy. You're not gonna get me to say it. Sorry. Go ahead. Say it again. She says, great gga sugar boo. It's so crazy every night.

Annoyed. It's so cringy.

We all had our battles that year, but there was one battle I wasn't ready for, and it changed everything. So I've wanted to ask you for a while, how exactly did the fight start? The fight? Do we really have to talk about the fight

from Radiotopia presents? This is, we're doing the Wiz part three. You don't hit white girls. I'm Ian Koss. And I'm Sina Ibrahim.

So I never mentioned my actual role in the show. I did not audition, did not have a part. I was in the pit band. If you know the song Ease on down the road, it starts with that classic, but up. But up. That wasn't me. But underneath that. There is a guitar going. That was me. I was the Janka Jan guitar guy,

and I share that to say I had a front row seat to the whole show. Literally, the pit is right up front, but I did not see everything that happened backstage in the wings among the cast. There is a question I've had for a while about what went on back there. Do you remember in the course of making the show, rehearsing it?

Any conversation about race? I don't, yeah, I don't remember any acknowledgement that like historically, this is a black theater piece. There was probably discussions had, but I don't feel like we all had a discussion together and I feel like they should have. No one we talk to remembers any kind of full cast.

Sit down or talk about the legacy and history of this show, what it meant for this group of students to play these roles. All I remember is going in blind Kale, Weissman again, played the lion being like, you have this role now. Take it. Have fun. I don't think we had anything bigger than that. So in some ways, do you think when you took on the part of the lion.

Your reference point was the Judy Garland Wizard of Oz. Absolutely. Oh yeah, absolutely. Part of what's complicated about The Wiz is that these are, for the most part, fantastical characters. The lion is a lion. The scarecrow is a scarecrow. But at the same time, the dialogue is clearly written to suggest some kind of 1970s black vernacular.

For example, in The Wiz, when the lion first enters with this whole tough guy act, Dorothy knocks him to the ground, and then you get this exchange. Lion, don't hit me no more. Tin man. Will you dig that lion? Don't you know you could hurt a person that way? Scarecrow. And you call yourself the king of the jungle lion.

You don't see no other cat begging for the gig, do you? So now, if you are a white actor playing the Lion or Scarecrow in the Wiz. Are you supposed to be playing a black lion or a black scarecrow? Should you perform that blackness? That's where the Wiz falls into this like perfect, perfect gray area. Danny Plimpton was, of course our scarecrow.

It's a perfect gray area. I, I'm kind of obsessed with it for that reason. I should mention that Danny is also a professional performer today. He was in the first national tour of Book of Mormon. So he's thought about these questions a lot in terms of what kinds of roles he can and should play. But in high school, not so much.

I wasn't totally oblivious to it, but I wasn't grappling with, is it okay that I'm playing the Scarecrow on the Wiz, which now is like, I wouldn't touch it with a hundred miles of straw. Um.

There was no explicit guidance on these questions as far as anyone remembers. We did the show straight off the book, and each performer made it their own as best they could, but Danny did have one specific memory. About how our music teacher, Mitch, helped him get into character and maybe helped him understand something about the show too.

He remembers Mitch giving all the lead actors a single vocalist who they should listen to, and he gave me Sam Cook. The point was not to imitate Sam Cook, but to get some inspiration and maybe a reminder that this show is part of a lineage that we were now part of a lineage. And I knew, I knew a lot of Stevie by then.

I knew a lot of Donnie Hathaway, but Sam Cook had not been on my radar, and I went out and bought a CD that was probably just best of Sam Cook. And I think I wore that thing out and clearly something about that music and that connection. It stuck with Danny. I remember singing. Cupid for a, a Broadway audition of Byebye Birdie, and I almost, I almost got that when I was 18.

How does that song go? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cupid, draw back your bow and let your go straight to, my love is.

It is now March of 2006. Snow is melting. The ground is muddy, and we're all under a lot of pressure. I was like, how am I gonna get to all these rehearsals? You know? At that point our schedule looks something like this, academic classes from 8:00 AM to 2:00 PM performing arts electives from two 30 to four 15.

I. Then a small break before rehearsal from five to 10. That meant Springfield. Kids didn't get home until 11:00 PM Then back up at 5:00 AM to catch the bus and do it all over again. And it was like if you had a problem, you had a problem, you would say it. Coming from Springfield Public Schools, I was still playing catch up academically and trying to figure out if these white people would ever be my friends or not, because it was already enough like going to a school that was predominantly white.

So it was like, I felt like we were on edge. Like that's what created anxiety for real, because it's like you don't know if these people are genuine for real or if they're just smiling in your face just to be like, oh, okay, I have a black friend, you know? But. At that time, you really had to be like, Hmm, do I take it this way?

Or, or, or do I let it go? I remember one kid would say things like, you people oughta, and I'm like, who you calling? You people? That kind of stuff. I struggled with letting go. My baby girl struggle. She struggled. But it's the Aries, I've learned it's the Aries in her that the switch, when it just go, it just goes off and there's like, no, I'm, she wasn't even subpoena in those moments.

So I will not, I don't charge that to my girl that was playing with her.

That year we did The Wiz A Boy entered my life. He was a new musician at school. I'd call him a musical genius, actually. He was like 17 with a Grammy nomination and touring sold out shows. I. Yeah, but at school he was a bit of an underdog to the cool musicians, guys like Ian. What we're saying is, I was one of the cool guys.

Yes, you were one of the cool guys. I've come to accept this. So this new boy, he didn't really fit in, but. We got to know each other, and one day he started handing me CDs, telling me the songs were written about me for my birthday. He bought me tickets to see the Black Eye peas. He even came to church with me for Easter and my mom sent him home with some soul food because he loved her cooking that much.

We were from different worlds, but we had so much in common. I felt like he listened to me like we dreamed big together. He was my first real high school love, but I remember the look in my great-grandmother's eyes when I introduced him as my boyfriend. She had these bluish great eyes, almost a hundred years old at the time, and she looked at me with so much fear.

She barely wanted to look at him in the eyes. She was born in North Carolina in 1911. And in her world, there was no way in hell her black great-granddaughter should be with a white boy. I remember that.

So the trouble started because there was a, another girl, I remember the first time I saw her walk into the dance company. I thought she was really pretty. She had these beautiful eyes, so we talked for a little bit. She shared some things about her home life and I sort of retreated because it sounded like she had more issues than I did, and that was a bit overwhelming.

But she did tell me about her new best friend. My boyfriend,

they were close before he and I even became an item, which was fine until one day I heard that this young lady was talking junk about me to the other dancers. And just to clarify, the young lady is white? Yes, she's white. I said, okay, I'm just gonna talk to her.

So I was like, Hey, you come here. I remember saying that you come here. Then we went into the dance room and I was like, I heard you was talking shit about me. We exchanged a few words. Then I specifically remember her saying, you stole him from me. I was like, what? This is about him. Then she said. That song he wrote for you was really for me.

And this all just poured out in the dance studio. This is news to you. Yeah, because again, we were all in the dance company together. Um, this is the most performing arts, high school drama possible. It's pretty outrageous. The other girl in the dance company is pissed that the guy she's in love with wrote a song for you.

At this point, the other girl was right up in my face, so I pushed her back. Then she walked up to me and punched me. I can't remember the intricate details, but I was there. Lakia had seen fights before, but not at PVPA. Fights didn't really happen at PVPA, and maybe when that young woman threw the first punch, she thought that would be the end of it.

But it wasn't because you know, AK is Ena. She is Sina fit right in, but AKs from Springfield. Okay. Okay. What do you mean by that? Like she got hands like, you know, don't underestimate her because she's so sweet. That's what I mean.

I remember being so shocked. I really couldn't process it, but in my head I'm like, oh shit, I gotta fight. So I stood up and I hit her maybe three or four times. The last time she fell, I saw her nose bleeding. I'm like, damn. I knew I had to stop. So I walked out. I saw Brittany who was friends with me and her.

I told her, yo, I just got into a fight. Brittany's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta leave. I'm like, what? She's like, you need to leave. So I got in the car and I got out of there.

And so, yeah, I just remember my mom being irate, like she was yelling so loud. I didn't understand the words coming out of her mouth. Like that, you know, it was just like so screeching high, the level of anger she was releasing, and it was very clear. You don't hit white girls. That that's not, you can't do that.

You don't hit white girls. Brittany told me the same, you don't hit white girls. The price is different.

The price is different. I remember being at my grandmother's house and the mail coming and opening it, like I opened it. I was like, oh, what's this mail with my name on it? And then, you know, seeing the, seeing that charges were being pressed.

Early on in rehearsing the show, I was told to write a character bio about who Dorothy was, where she came from, and how her life mirrored mine. At first, my interpretation was pretty surface level. I connected with Dorothy's compassion and her desire to make friends on her journey. But at some point during rehearsals with Mark, he pushed me further.

I remember coming in on weekends and you being there giving some coaching around who Dorothy really was. Yes, I remember that. I was so lucky to have one-on-one rehearsals with a Broadway icon. Mark told me what this show meant for him as a kid. He told me that Dorothy could have edge, that she wasn't just sweet and innocent.

By the end of the show, she had seen some things. She stood up for her friends, she fought battles. She had killed a witch.

The difference between white Dorothy and black Dorothy is the condition society has placed on us. The heart of the character is the same. It's a young girl trying to get home, but there are specific experiences that make her different. That is what Black Dorothy is fueled with, I think performing. Is about truth and how you say it is important.

How you communicate who you are through this material is relevant and it's yours. You own it. I'm just here to help you bring it out. And when people get a sense that they actually own something, that they produce themselves, that nobody else can do that. Whether it's a. Two lines of a song or two counts of eight, it's still yours,

and that's what Mark told me to bring to the character myself, all of myself, the love and hope of my mom. The gang violence that left my uncle disabled, the street smarts of my aunt, and yeah, I brought that Aries fire too.

Do you remember anything about when I got in a fight? I do. Once again, Mitch Shakur, our musical director. I do. I don't really remember much about it, but I knew it was with And it was, wasn't it? Yeah. And it was about, yeah, you remember the drama. And I just thought, I just thought, wow, that's crazy. I don't like it.

But okay. For Mitch, the fight was a sign that Sakina was hurting. She needed support and I was just curious about what part of, what part of your soul was that soul music coming from? Because I knew the other stuff that was inside you. Yeah. For the school administration, though it was hard to be quite so open-hearted about the situation.

I actually spoke with the head of PVPA from that time. He told me that this was, as far as he knows, the first punch in the school's history. There'd never been a fight like this before, and while PVPA generally didn't believe in punishing kids, by removing them from school, he felt he had to send a message.

Sina was suspended. So now we're just a few weeks out from the show, and maybe this is the moment to stress that it was a very big show, maybe the biggest the school had ever attempted, because after years of staging musicals in our rundown blacked out gymnasium, the school had struck a deal to put on the Wiz in an 800 seat grand old theater in downtown North Hampton, the town where I lived.

We were scheduled to do five shows in a single weekend, including Doubleheaders on both Saturday and Sunday. Orchestra seats sold for $20. Real money for student production and money that I'm sure the school needed to help recoup its costs. By the end, roughly 100 students were involved in the show, making costumes, building sets, running tech, playing in the pit.

So all of that is happening, but now the star is gone and we're all wondering, is she coming back? Was there something about you possibly not being able to do the show because of it? That's what I wanted to ask you. That's what I remember. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Because we were like three weeks out and I remember, I remember them coming to, uh, myself and Alicia, and they were saying something about it, and I, I just remember like laughing.

In case that response sounds a bit off the context here is that Mitch had been in this position before, twice before, where a student had done something bad and taking away their role in a show was considered as a punishment. Both times Mitch made his line very clear. Uh, if you kick them out, I'm quitting.

Wow. But what can we talk about it? No, it's easy, easy choice. I, I'm fine if you want to do that, but I'm not doing it anymore. It happened two other times, but not with the fighting thing, so that's why I think I just like, oh, oh, oh, poof. That's not happening. That's silly. Boy. Pat him on the head. Oh, silly boy.

Of course none of us kids knew what was happening behind the scenes, including Sakina, who at this point was still at home, staring down a court summons with assault and battery charges on it. And because of my family history and the trauma that we had experienced, um, particularly around fighting and gang violence.

In court, like all of it. It was like, it was a very big deal because these kinds of things, you know, we can consider like generational. Mm. And so, yeah, I just remember my mom really getting me together, like whatever the words were, whatever the words were, I don't remember, I don't think I've, to this date have seen her that angry because you're actually the one Sina that is being invested into.

So that you do have a different life. Our parents weren't driving us all that way so we could end up in the same shit. So I think that's when like the disappointment hit me. And I remember like praying and saying, you know, Lord, I'm a Christian woman, and that wasn't the right way of dealing with this situation and.

Forgive me, and if you gimme another chance, I won't mess it up. That was my prayer. If you just gimme another chance, I won't mess it up.

So we go to the court. And the lady was like, these charges have been dropped. And so I was like, oh, the Lord hoard my prayers. The Shakur family may have heard those prayers too, because what we didn't mention before is that Mitch's wife, Andrea was also the guidance counselor at PVPA. Andrea was on the case.

I knew she's the hero of the whole family gonna tell you. And that week, Andrea was able to reach out. To the mother of the other girl in the fight, made a phone call to the mother and talked her off the ledge.

I have a deep debt of gratitude to those adults who use their power to protect me. Someone who needed an advocate. Someone who needed love, someone who had just entered a long journey of healing.

I still remember my first one-on-one rehearsal with Mitch. I came in already knowing the songs and I think that shocked him. And so he just started playing Be a Lion. I'm tearing up now 'cause I love that song so much.

There is a place we'll go where there is mostly quiet

words and.

Oh, rainbow leaves beside

and from

a summer storm,

I can feel the.

I finished the song and he says, Sina, you aren't a student anymore. You are now a professional.

Do you remember going back to rehearsals for the first time after the fight, what it felt like to be back in the company? What's coming to me is feeling like a warmth from Lakia. Yeah. And honestly, nobody ever talking about it. That fight did not come up from what I recall in our rehearsal process. Uh, you know, that felt like the safe space for me.

Did it change what the show meant to you? Yes. The show saved my life. I feel, I feel so clear about that. Because if it wasn't for the show, they would've kicked my ass out of PVPA. There's no if, ands, or buts about it. If it wasn't for the show, I would've gotten expelled. I. And where would you have wound up?

I hate to say it, but so sometimes in the black community, when you want more for yourself or you know you wanna get out the hood or you wanna education or you wanna start a business, there can be a very. Doubtful rhetoric from friends, family, community. Hmm. Oh, like we knew you wasn't going nowhere. You belong right here with us.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You just kind of end up in a trap. You end up in a cycle, in a generational cycle, you end up with little hope and it takes a hell of a lot of persistence and faith. Angels to help guide you out of a trap, and that's what I experienced with this show. It was like, it was every reason to go back to that in those final weeks of March, the show really became ours.

We stopped thinking about the references, the script down in the pit. We basically put away the sheet music since Mitch would always encourage us to just make up our own riffs and rhythm parts anyway. Nah, we don't look at the books that, that's my music teacher talking. We don't look at the books. We just play the music.

We play the songs and the performers on stage, we're making it their own too. So I just remember looking in the mirror, just practicing my facial expressions. Lakia again was playing evil. Lean the wicked witch. I know my mama's being mean. So I just started to let my mom, you know, she took big steps, you know, so I would embody that or point my finger or, you know, put more bass in my voice, stuff like that.

Every other witch was in a gown. Flowy. Even Brittany found a way to make her part start to feel right. You know, like, mm-hmm. I don't wanna wear a quin, I don't wanna have to like, you know, wear a, a curtain. What Brittany wanted to wear was a purple valore tracksuit with matching purple Jordans. So, is the purple suit yours?

Oh yeah. My, my mom bought that. The shoes too. Yes, I'm dry. It was like, I'm gonna buy her some Jordan's because I'm like, if I'm wearing purple, I need some purple shoes. I love it. I remember giving the costume designer a really hard time because she wanted to put me in flats. I'm like, flats? What? This Dorothy wears heels.

So I went to Marshall's and there they were a pair of three inch sparkly silver heels. And I remember thinking, oh, now it's on. We might've been having second guesses up until dress rehearsal. 'cause when we actually put the wig on and I put the dress on, I was like, wow, this is really it.

In the spring of 2006, it was all things Oz in the Pioneer Valley. Wicked was in the middle of its first ever national tour and headed our way and just down the road. Rivals at North Hampton High School were gearing up to stage the Wizard of Oz. The two shows were on back to back weekends. The local paper.

Even ran a piece on it with the headline, two Wizards in the Works, and we took that personally for Lakia. It wasn't just about showing up the other school, it was about showing up the other show, like I remember talking to, I like the people in the play, like We gotta kill it. And it's no shade to the Wizard of Oz because without the Wizard of Oz, there would be no wiz, essentially.

Right. But the wizard is just better, more soulful. And the way we about to bring it, you're like they're wicked. Witch has got nothing. Nothing on evilly, nothing. Come on. Why

the article acknowledged that there was some. Quote, trepidation about staging a show that is traditionally staged with an all black cast, but our production manager insisted that this staging would live up to the legacy. Now we had to prove it in part four. It's Showtime baby. Is my iron still on? Is she done?

Is she done? She's done. Okay.

We're doing. The Wiz is created and produced by Ian Koss and myself, Sina Ibrahim. Our story editor is Erin Edwards, and the managing producer is Yuri LoDo. The executive producer is Audrey Marvi. The series is made possible in part by a grant from Mass Humanities, which provided funding through the Massachusetts Cultural Council.

I also just wanna give a special shout out to Stephanie Mills. Diana Ross. And any other girl who has ever had the honor to play Dorothy, we're doing The Wiz Is part of Radiotopia Presents a podcast feed that debuts limited run artist owned series from new and original voices. Learn more about where doing The Wiz.

And access transcripts at Radiotopia Presents fm and discover more shows from across the Radiotopia network at Radiotopia fm.

 You're listening to Radiotopia Presents from PR X's Radiotopia. Hi, this is Yuri from Radiotopia. Just a heads up that we're trying something new here. Taking part in a podcast promo campaign by occasionally featuring episodes from other shows that we think you might like. We think it could be a win win win.

The other shows get exposure to an excellent, discerning audience. Um, I'm talking about you here. You find out about a great new show and we get some additional revenue to help keep the show going. Have any feedback for us? Reach out at info at radiotopia fm and happy listening Radiotopia Presents is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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Did you hide the Ian questions doc in a, in a folder where I wanted to see it. Where you couldn't see them? Yes. Yeah. You know me, I'm always, uh, I'm always lurking around in the Google drive. Seeing, just seeing what's in there. Nope. Good, good. To hide things from me. I kept this to myself, so I actually wanted to know how this idea.

Came to your mind, because I know in this process I've been kind of like this idea came to you, so I wanted to know like how did it come up? Did it just pop up in a dream, or what went down in your process? Yeah, I've been trying to remember myself when I first started thinking about this idea. I do think this is one of those projects where.

There's like the story you tell the audience that's, you know, about The Wiz and about this musical, and then underneath it there is the actual like emotional question that you're asking yourself.

And I think for me, the underlying starting point question was, why have I not spoken to a single one of my black classmates since the day we graduated high school?

From Radiotopia Presents, this is where doing The Wiz part four, past the Squeeze. I'm Sakina Ibrahim. And I'm Ian Kos.

I remember walking into the Academy of Music for the first time and my jaw dropping because it was such a beautiful space. Just a few weeks before I was at home in Springfield, suspended for getting into a fight and looking at a court summons. Now I was here, so the Academy of Music is in downtown North Hampton.

I think it's 800 seats. Just picture a grand old theater of big marquee, out front ticket windows, red seats, velvet curtain opera boxes. There's something about going through a corridor of any theater where there are people you recognize that have signed the walls. That's like a hallowed kind of experience.

The week before the show opens, we have what we called Hell week. That's Theater Kid Talk for Tech Week. When we got to the theater, Mitch gathered all of us down in the pit for vocal warmups talking to us about professionalism. I. I remember how freezing cold it was in that place and thinking, oh, that's why the theater kids always have scarves on.

Then as we were getting ready for the tech, I heard the sound of cameras. The newspaper was there. It felt surreal. It felt like it felt important. I even had my own dressing room. You can just stop there. I mean, you had your own dressing room. Just stop. Just stop right there. It was all mine. I think it had my name on the door.

I. We all felt the weight of it. This wasn't just a high school musical anymore, it was a community production. You know, I felt like I'm a real entertainer and for the first time, some of our folks in Springfield had a reason to drive to North Hampton. Typically, we never went there. It was on the other side of the curtain.

But this show, the Wiz was gonna bring together people from both sides of the mountain, grandmothers, parents, children, cousins, aunties, uncles, friends of friends, people from church, all coming to witness this production just as soon as we finish putting it together. I remember, um, Alicia choreographing the tornado scene.

Mm-hmm. The morning of dress rehearsal, Mitch Shakur, again was our musical director. She had her dancer, she got the fabric and she said, and this is where Sina will be, and Sina will be here, and then you're gonna do this with her and do that with her and do that. And then we probably just did it once before dress rehearsal.

I think all I had to do was just like, circle around them or something. You know what? And that's because how, how else are we gonna get you to Oz? Well, the good thing was that I was a, a dance major, so I don't know how it happened, but Charlie did a lift and that was like the moment, right? During the tornado.

Amazing. Yeah. He did a lift and was spinning me around. That's Ronnie. Yeah. And I was like, okay, we just took this thing to the next level. Yes, we did. We only had a few days to rehearse in the theater. And remember, our last big production was in a gymnasium, basically. So it was a scramble to figure out entrances, blocking, how to see each other, how to hear each other.

I remember running back and forth up to the sound engineer saying, turn this mic up louder. Change the sound. Do this, which of course, only made the nerves work that much harder. I was so nervous to sing what I could throw up at the thought right now.

Opening night was Friday, March 26th, 2006. One of the munchkins in the show went to St. John's Church where her pastor, a young guy, probably in his twenties, hosted teen nights and before the show, he came backstage. We all met in my dressing room, which was filled with flowers, and he prayed over us. Then it was time for places out in the house.

The lights dimmed. Mitch gave the band a look and raised up one hand to cue the first chord of the overture.

The very first scene, of course, is me and on m played by my old rival, the musical theater princess. And yeah, it was awkward, but in that moment, all of the tension disappeared and we became our characters.

So how did the song go when you, when you got up on stage? I feel like it went good. I surprised myself, Brittany Beman, our reluctant add a pearl was up next it, it was Kia standing on the sidelines and then when I would get done and come home, she was like, yes friend. Yeah. So just her like hyping me up, like, okay, yeah, I hit it that night.

I do remember. I, I kind of lost my voice the weekend of the shows. Danny Plimpton, who was not the professional performer he is now, was struggling after all the stress of tech week. So Mitch gave him some vocal exercises to do in between scenes, and I had him doing and he'd get off stage and they forget to shut his mic off.

And all of a sudden we heard no way. Really loud. It was amazing.

I remember Trevin who played the 10 man singing his song, slide Some oil to me and the drummer in the pit playing the sound of his top shoes. During our dance break, Trevor was kind of sliding his feet back and forth. But it was not in sync with the sound of the drumsticks. It was hilarious. But somehow he made it work.

Then of course we meet the lion, played by kale Weissman. I never would've thought that Kale, someone who had just a year before played a part in that whole history class incident would be my lion. So remember they had you in a fur coat. I do remember we have a picture of this in my house. Dorothy and the lion share a really special bond, and even though Kayla and I were never close at PVPA.

This show gave us an opportunity to see each other more clearly. My favorite part is when you come out and the audience claps, and then you're like waving your hands, like, stop, stop. No, be, I'm being modest. And then you're like, no, no, no. Gimme some more. Gimme some more. And so I was like, wow, this guy is brilliant on stage.

Um, I, I assumed it was. You in your craft. You know, just you taking the moment and soaking the moment and and saying, no, no, no. Don't clap for me. No. Gimme some more. Gimme some more craft. Yeah, that's one word for it. It's called Feels brilliant being a flamboyant ham.

Now through all this Lakia Bailey was waiting backstage because evil Evelyn, the wicked witch, does not enter until act two, scene one. My sister was texting me the entire show, like, when ain't you coming out? You know? But. When the scene turned red, I could hear my family just 'cause they knew. It was like my time Lakia was rolled out onto the stage on a giant throne covered with skulls and tusks, and of course surrounded by her groveling winkies.

She was in her red wig and sparkly red dress, which as recently as the night before had been held together with safety pins. Not anymore. The Winkys chanted as she rolled on until Lakia yelled for everyone to shut up, and then the song started.

At that point, the place exploded. That is something I remember about that show is the audience was not quiet. The audience was very much involved. That's how black people show up for each other.

But in order to leave the stage, Kia had to slip through a trap door on the floor in a poof of fake smoke. You know the melting bit. I can honestly remember me being so nervous that I tumbled into the hole, like feet hanging out a little bit. I fell. I did fall as soon as evil melts. Everyone in the cast pours onto stage for brand new day.

Lakia even took her wig off and limped back on to sing and dance with the ensemble. I just remember all of us with our arms going up and down while we sang that last line over and over. Can't you feel a brand new day?

And from there, there's not much left to do, but get Dorothy back home. How did the song home go? Oh, when you finally got to that high note, how'd that go? The first night I played it safe. I was scared. I had already fucked it up and so I didn't go up. I stayed the octave lower. Mm. And I remember. Okay. You didn't even sing the high note at all?

Nope. Nope. I was like, not tonight. I'm not gonna mess it up tonight. Did Mitch give you a look? He was like, oh, he was banging the hell outta my key. He was like, you're up here. Why are you down here? And so after he goes, oh, Sina, you're just so good. I'm so proud of you, but when you hear me banging your key, you have to take your voice there.

By the second night, I was a little more confident. I was able to use my head voice. And hit my note. We closed the weekend with two shows on Sunday, and by the last night I was soaring. I still get tears in my eyes thinking about you singing that. Um, Aww, I'm gonna cry. It is the, it's the whole idea of what the wizz is.

It's the whole idea of what I feel my. Life has become. You go on this journey and you meet all of these people and hopefully you learn from them. And Dorothy learned from all of these people and she learned that everything that you're looking for, you're there already. You.

Every show comes to an end. We are ready for that. But nothing in life prepares you for the end of high school. Up to that point, we're caught in a loop. There's always another school year, another test, another show. Another chance to ask your crush on a date and therefore another excuse to not ask your crush on a date.

It feels like it'll last forever, and then suddenly you realize you are exiting the loop. The musical closes. Somebody hosts a cast party, somebody gets drunk classes, end grades close. It's liberating, but also uncomfortably final

because whatever it is high school was supposed to be supposed to mean, it's now set. There won't be any more chances. If you could go back to high school, what would you change? Yeah, and for me, there is one moment from those final days that I found myself thinking about, it feels like a little emblem of everything the Wiz couldn't do for us.

What the busing program and the all school assembly and all the good intentions still couldn't do for us or for me at least. Face it. It's, it's weird. I remember this so vividly. Really, it involved Britney, who we've heard from, and it played out in those final days of senior year after our production ended.

Okay, so I, I think it's May or June, 2006, senior year, I wanna say on the third floor where the music rooms were. Coming out and running into Britney in the hallway, and this was in a period of my life where I could unironically wear a kind of long like Stephen Tyler esque colorful scarf, like a real kind of want tobe rock star look.

And it, it's actually taken me a long time to accept this reality, but. I think in the strange social order of a performing arts high school, I was cool. Yes. Even though you didn't care and uh, maybe there was, there's probably like a little chitchat 'cause we knew each other and The Wiz was probably the most time we had really spent in a room together collaborating on the same thing.

And then she was real direct about it. She was like, would you go to prom with me? You wanna go to prom together, just right out and asked it. Wow. I didn't have a date planned. I actually didn't have any prom plans. And for some reason in that moment, all I could think to say was, no, I'm just gonna go stag.

And we left it at that. And I don't know, I like remember the words. I remember using the phrase, I'm gonna go stag. I did in fact go to prom by myself without a date. It was not a lie, but over the years, I've thought back on that silly refusal of mine, not because it was racist or intentionally cruel or anything so terrible, but it just feels now like an utter lack of imagination and openness on my part.

Yeah. You know, wow. I mean, here was this young woman who had the guts to get on a yellow school bus every morning in downtown Springfield and ride up to a school filled with kids who did not look like her, and the guts to walk right up to one of those kids and ask him to prom. And it's not like a marriage proposal or anything.

It's one night where I could have picked her up at her house and we'd show up at a party together and for some reason. I would rather just show up alone. So we did ask Brittany about this moment and she remembered it. I don't know whether to trust all my high school memories or not, but I have a memory of you asking me to prom, and the call is over.

The call is over. Hang up. Hang, hang up what you leave. And as usual, there was more going on than I knew. Okay. Me and Kia, like we always had this thing and at the time you were like, Johansen cute. You know what I'm saying? Like me and Kia always had this like secret crush and I feel like she dared me to do that.

Really? Yes. She's like the great instigator of this whole story. No, because Kia is really that y'all don't understand. She's sweet, but no, she's really evil. She was evilly for real. No, like

Brittany was obviously real nice about it. She did not give me a hard time. I mean, we were kids then. We're both happy with our lives now, I'm sure I've thought a lot more about this moment than she has, and I think so much of it is that everything always took place. I. On our turf, on our side of the mountain.

Right. It's like the school, the rehearsals, the show. It all happened there, and you could come and you could be part of it, but it never went the other way. Yeah. You know? Wow. Um, like going and picking you up at your house and driving you to prom, it was just, yeah. That would've been like a reach beyond that come up with I was not coming to the hood.

I'm sorry. That is so funny now that you like actually put it in that way. But me, I probably was more comfortable just because I did have friendships, you know, with um, my white classmates. With, yeah, with everyone, honestly. Who too. Who you had to, yeah. So, um, that's probably what made me even be like, okay, whatever you wanna dare me to ask him, I ask him.

Um, but I can, I can definitely get that now. I can definitely understand why it would, you would be like, uh, girl, no. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'd have to like drive to Springfield, like, I don't know my way around Springfield and I don't wanna get lost either. Like print out, it was map maps on MapQuest or something, you know, it was MapQuest at that time.

Right. So, yeah, I get that. I get that. I, I don't say that as an excuse or something. No, it's just, um, it would've been this chance to just break out of the pattern that we had established, and we would've had a great time. I'm sure we would've had a great time. You would've had a great time. Yeah, and no, no, I still think about that.

But your life would've been very different, my friend. As the saying goes, you know, you know the saying, right? No. Once you, you dunno the same. Oh, okay. Okay. I know where you go once, once you go black, you never go back.

That really would've set my life on a different course. Huh? You would've been on a different path.

I mentioned that when I started this project, the first person I called was Lakia. Of all the cast members in The Wiz, she was probably the person I knew best. We were the same year, both musicians, and in that call I asked her about this same thing, how it was that after everything we went through together, it seems like we mostly went back to our own sides of the mountain.

She told me she had the same experience. Yeah. I was shocked when you reached out, like shocked. I'm like, you wanna talk to me for what? But I get it. You know? I haven't really talked to none of my white classmates either. Right. But why though? 'cause we were cool, right? Like I was, I feel like me and you were cool.

Like yeah. It's like, damn, I wish I did. Keep in con. 'cause you never know, like you never know, like the connections you can make. Yeah. With the same people today. You know what I mean? So, right, right. Yeah. It's weird like June, 2006, like, you know, we showed up for graduation and then that was, it went on like I didn't have your phone number.

Yeah. And it's just like all those relationships you just kind of take for granted don't last unless you, unless you make that effort. I agree. Hey, so, um, but you got my number now. I got your number now. So, you know, like yeah, we can change that narrative. That phone call was a few years ago now, but just recently we had a chance to reconnect in person down in North Carolina where Kia lives, and I got to meet the whole family.

I brave. I'm strong. I love, I'm smart, and I'm really, Kia has three kids now. I brave and part of the reason for this get together was that they were curious to meet me.

The kids have only lived in North Carolina, so they hardly know anyone from Kia's childhood. And here I was. An emissary from a past life with photographic evidence. Why she, Bobby?

Why does she look like that? What does she look like? A grandma. Oh,

she has red hair. I was a, I was a evil grandma. There you go. Evil grandma. Do you think your mom is a. A natural evil witch, oh God, is that a natural character for her? Uh, sometimes.

What is, what's her name? I'm trying to remember her. I know this doesn't change what happened or didn't happen in high school. It doesn't erase the tofu curtain or the impersonation contest, or the fight or prom or the day we walked across the stage and threw our graduation caps in the air. Basically content in the unspoken understanding that we would never see or hear from each other ever again,

but it felt good to reminisce over pizza. To laugh about the donut man and the guy who wrapped at every Friday open mic and how we all thought we'd be big stars someday. And just to know that here we are, almost 20 years after that last show at the Academy closed, and despite everything else, we will always have that experience in common.

We did the Wiz.

I mean, I'm just gonna ask it. Do you feel like it was appropriate that we did The Wiz

coming up? Sakina gives her answer to the question that has been hanging over our whole story.

At what point in our process of making the podcast did you decide to stage the Wiz with your students in California? Well, I don't think we had recorded yet. And one gimme a hand clap. Two hand claps. Three hand claps. Very nice job. I now teach at an art school in Orange County and when Ian first called me a few years back, I hadn't thought about High school or The Wiz in a long time, but once he mentioned the 50th anniversary of the original show was coming up, I knew exactly what musical my own students should do.

We're ready. Of course, I face pushback. The school is almost entirely Hispanic, outta 600 students. There might be six black kids. So I hired a director and choreographer, both of them black to help me to mount the show. But after they came in the first day and they realize the demographic of the students.

They didn't wanna do the show anymore. One of them said something about the naacp, how problematic it all was. Like the NAACP was gonna come haunt me or something. I understood where they were coming from. I mean, the Wiz is sacred for black people. But my perspective is a little different. So we parted ways and the show went on without them.

It's time to do a run of the show. We are less than three months out. You have to start telling the story. Now we're out of the start. When I was at PVPA, it never occurred to me that we shouldn't do this show. I felt like they were doing this show for us. That there was a group of talented black kids from Springfield at a white school, and we now had an opportunity to share that talent.

We know the origins of this show. We know why it exists. We know that the song Brand New Day is about the emancipation from slavery. If you've done your work, you should know, but what also has to be at the table is The Wiz is a great piece of American art. The end,

I'm waiting. The challenge is that my students are in the third to eighth grade, so my work was cut out for me. How did you explain the show to your students? I mean, it's a continuous process. Oh, Lord. We were doing eviling, we're doing no bad news. And I was trying to put a, a praise clap in it, right? Like, stomp clap, stomp clap, stomp clap.

And they were so offbeat.

And I was like, kids. Has no one been to a black church before? Then they all kind of look at each other like, you do know we're in Orange County, right? And I'm like, oh, damn. Yeah, you're right. Nevermind. Okay, this comes from a Baptist church. Or you know, I have to break all these, these things down. Ensemble, move back slowly, very slow.

Slow motion. Slow motion, and then freeze in a, in a pose like you're talking to each other. Working through home with my Dorothy was very nostalgic. 'cause that same note, you know,

what'd you tell her? What'd you coach her to do? I paid for her private lesson. You're not playing games. Just paid for her. I made a phone call.

I think it's just a tough song. Whatever you have inside of you is what you have to put into it. You have to put yourself into it. You can't interpret somebody else's version of soul.

We'll work on it.

All right, last part.

The original 1975 production of The Wiz only lasted a few years on Broadway. It didn't run for decades like Phantom or Lion King. It didn't play for generations of fans and school field trips and tourists. So the only way this show lives on is if people continue to put it on.

By the way, one of the sixth black kids at my school did audition for the show. He's a sixth grader. He just transferred in and he really looks like a little Michael Jackson. So of course he's our scarecrow. And when he found out, he was like, miss Sina, I just knew I was gonna get this part. And I said, well, you know, some things are just chosen for you.

If this were a national touring production, I might think twice about doing The Wiz with a non-black cast. In fact, I wouldn't. But I believe we have to teach black art. And yes, we have to teach black art in non-black spaces. Not just to educate, but to ensure it's not erased. If we don't, we get left outta history altogether.

Everybody in the stage, guys, everybody. Can I see a circle? Can we all get in a circle? I always look forward to the pre-show huddle. It is the moment you work toward all year as a cast. Who else am I missing? It's the last chance to come together and for me to share words of encouragement with my students in the same way Mitch, mark, and Alicia once did for me.

We fought hard for this show, didn't we? We overcame a lot of stuff and you guys are shining so brightly. Get out there, give it your all. No fear dance full out, sing full out. There's a tradition I learned at PVPA that a lot of theater kids will know. Called pass the squeeze

right before the show starts. Everyone holds hands when someone gives a gentle squeeze, so I want you to feel, if you feel the squeeze, you gotta pass it. Okay? It's a way to connect everyone you ready, so that when you're on stage, you have chemistry and you're able to improvise no matter what happens.

It's a way to say, I feel you. And I'm here with you. I got your back. There's something beautiful about how when you're teaching, you really have to stop and think about. I. Okay. If I convey one thing, if I can impart one thing about what this musical means and where it's from, then what's that? Right? But it's a little tiny seed planted in them about this moment in history that's really important to black history and American history and American culture and American theater.

Right. They get to be a part of the legacy of this wacky idea that came from the seventies. You know,

have to please, because you know, in another 20 years, those little girls, they will one day teach. Right. They one day might be professors or you know, working actors, and they'll be able to say, I knew this was for me when we did The Wiz. You know, what's the Wiz? That's, that's the Soul musical. That's a black musical.

And then the story gets told again, and the story gets told again. Mm-hmm. Alright, gimme a hand clap. Clap people.

What do you.

We are doing the Wiz. Is created and produced by Sakina Ibrahim and myself, Ian Cos Our story editor is Aaron Edwards, but that title does not fully capture it as Sakina and I worked through the puzzle of how to tell this story. Aaron. Was a true creative partner, and I cannot imagine making the show without it.

The managing producer is Yuri Losordo, and the executive producer is Audrey Marvi. We will forever be grateful for your faith in this project. And please give it up one more time to our fantastic cast. Okay. My name is Lakia Bailey and I played Eviling in The Wiz. My name is Kale Guthrie Weissman, and I played the Cowardly Lion.

Hi, I am Daniel Plimpton, but for this interview I'll be known as Danny 'cause that's what I was all throughout high school and I played the Scarecrow. Hi guys, my name is Brittany and I played Adam Pearl in the Woods. And now say, great. Gga Moga, sugar Booga. Great. Good. Off of my nerves,

the incredible teachers you heard in our story were Mitch Chiko, our musical director, and our co choreographers, Alicia Sha and Mark Allen Davis. I also just want to acknowledge the many former PVPA students and staff we talked to for this project, who you don't hear from, but who helped fill out our memories of that very special time and place.

You know who you are and we thank you. We're doing The Wiz was made possible by a grant from Mass Humanities, which provided funding through the Massachusetts Cultural Council. A special thank you to our humanities advisors. Jay, Austin Williams, Justin Coles, and Eric Glover. Thanks also to Jason Salana, Maggie Gorville, David Catron, and the entire team at PRX for making this show possible.

And to Megan Tan for recording the audio at Sina School. We are proud to be part of Radiotopia Presents a podcast feed that debuts limited run artist owned series from new and original voices. Learn more at Radiotopia Presents fm. And last but not least, a special shout out to my students who I get to share the gift of the arts with every day.

Now that we're coming to the end of the journey of making this show together, I can't help but think about how. The experience of making this show is also like our experience of doing The Wiz. We're coming together to make this thing, and it's a little messy, but it is something, and, uh, who knows where we'll be in 5, 10, 20 years from now.

But I, I feel like I know you beyond just, we made a thing together. In a way that, that means a lot to me. Di I did have a moment where I said to myself, oh wow. I love him now. I was like, oh, I can't say that out loud. They're gonna take it the wrong way, but it's, I see you and I'm grateful that you've decided to bring me on this journey and open my heart.

So thank you. I think that's a good place to leave it. Oh, okay. We'll talk again. Alright, more to come. All right. You have a good night. Have a good night. Thank you. Bye. All right, bye-bye.