Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative

We hear a lot about the value of stories, that stories are powerful, therapeutic, that they can change the world, but is that mostly bullshit?

Documentaries are supposed to be impactful, yes, but they're also entertainment. They're being sold, right?

As a documentarian, my job is to tell other people's stories.

People trust me. They open their hearts to me.

My life spiraled out of control.

Police brutality, I mean.

Psychologically, I was messed up. Psychologically, I still am.

The documentary industry is booming. There's real money on the table here, and the more people open their hearts, the higher the market value of their stories.

But at what cost? It was like one of the hardest things I ever did. My life was in shambles. For a long time, I've been questioning whether the rules of documentary I was taught are still relevant. So I'm doing an experiment. I'm throwing out the rulebook. I'm casting this series on Craigslist. I'm paying my subjects and handing them the reins to direct the stories they tell on the show.

Maybe I can figure out some better ways of doing things.

The way you put that together was brilliant. You are revolutionizing the documentary style by being so transparent.

Then again, maybe not.

It's not fair to me. It, it's really very bad. Very, very bad, making me very upset.

In this four episode series, I'm flipping the script on the power dynamics between documentary makers and subjects to see if I can still make a viable media product.

Can I be honest with you?

Yeah.

What makes you think that other people are gonna be interested in hearing that?

I'm Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative, from Radiotopia Presents. Episode 1 drops January 16th.

What is this exactly for? I know this is like a documentary you've been working on and stuff. For…

Let me get your mic set up and then we'll talk about it.

If you're listening to this, I'm guessing you've been moved, entertained, even changed by a well told true story about someone else's life.

And then the first thing I need to get you to do is to sign this release form.

Well, you can read it and, you know, ask any questions before signing. No problem. Feels good. Okay.

Um, it's just making sure that you are consenting to being recorded and to be using the recording.

Oh, okay. Alright. Definitely.

Real life stories. We seem to be really into them right now. No longer does the word documentary conjure memories of falling asleep in history class, or getting stoned and watching Planet Earth.

These days, first person true stories make up a good chunk of our media diets. Well, do you want to start by, um, [00:01:00] introducing yourself? Maybe say like your name, uh, your age and a little bit about yourself.

Sure. Um,

My name is Jess Shane. I'm an artist and documentary audio producer.

Should I be nervous? No, okay.

I don't know. I don't think so. We're just gonna have a chat. Okay, cool. But, you know, if you are nervous at any point and you're like, why are you asking this question? Like, you can ask me questions too.

Oh, trust me, I will. No. Okay.

The clips you're hearing now are from auditions for my latest documentary project.

So maybe I'll tell you a little bit more about the process of how this project will work. We're going to do auditions, all the people are going to tell their story, talk about why they want to be in a documentary, what they hope to get out of it, etc. And then after that I'm going to be picking four people, who will be sort of the lead characters of the documentary.

Okay, cool. I'm ready. Do you want to give us like the bird's eye view of the story?

Yeah, absolutely.

You need to keep it to like two minutes, ideally.

Okay, keep it two minutes. Um, basically what happened was I was born in [00:02:00] 94, uh, I moved…

I posted an ad online and over 200 people applied to take part. But I'm running these auditions to select the best stories to work with.

Um, I want to tell my story because I feel it is important. Really educate people because yeah,

I'm here to uh, To really just share my experience strength and hope and um, so that way it'll make a difference in somebody's life Yeah, so that way they be…

When I was growing up, it seemed like everyone was talking about the value of stories. It was in politics.

My story is part of the larger American story. In no other country on earth is my story even possible.

In advocacy.

The It Gets Better Project. A non profit created by you. Changing lives worldwide, one story at a time.

In [00:03:00] advertising.

And Dove Real Beauty Productions is really about getting those stories told.

And every talk show, on the radio, on TV,

Speaking your truth

Makes it possible for us to imagine what it would be to

Cultivate a more empathetic and understanding society by revealing intimate truths That when they are not alone

So I wanted to make documentaries. And blessed with the many privileges of a middle class security net, I set my sights on a notoriously unstable career in media. But it was 2016, and when the promise of an approaching golden age in nonfiction narrative podcasting is beckoning, you listen.

It was work that I thought I'd be good at and enjoy. I'm an extrovert, a good listener, [00:04:00] and a Gemini with a penchant for asking nosy questions. But maybe most importantly, I saw that audio documentaries could be creative, an art form. I've often heard making documentaries be compared to being a doula of sorts.

A guest just needs to show up with the story they want to bring into the world, and then it's up to the producer, moi, to help them deliver that story in the best way possible.

fuck up, but if I forget something and I have to go back, you know how many

You're great. You're allowed to fuck up, you're allowed to go back. I'm also here to guide you.

I also bring a platform.

And, and what audience are you kind of like catering to?

Yeah, totally. These are great questions. So, um, we're making this series for a network called Radiotopia.

Right.

Which is part of a bigger network called PRX. Okay. And they have a huge listenership.

They have some really popular shows that have like really massive audiences. Yeah. I mean, is there a certain, making documentaries seemed like a kind of social service. A way to empower people society tends to silence, or overlook, [00:05:00] or discriminate against by giving them an opportunity to be heard and understood.

You know, I think the worst thing is people walk by you like you're invisible, you know?

Everyone who has come to my auditions today is expressing some reason, some desire to step into the spotlight.

Because there's a lot of stuff, like, that I experience that I feel like Americans either take for granted or they don't know about.

They came with stories they hoped could take apart harmful stereotypes.

Shed light on something that has been really misconceived for a long time.

Stories that unpack how individuals’ experiences reflect broader systemic issues.

I'm free here, but my pending application for asylum is still awaiting. And it's really killing us, the waiting.

But this project is different than any documentary I've worked on before. Because [00:06:00] I'm not just looking for important or surprising stories. I'm actually here interviewing all of these people to figure something out for myself about the documentary industry. I grew up with all of these ideas about storytelling as this noble art form.

But approaching a decade of doing this work? I've got some questions about just what it is we think we're doing telling other people's stories. Questions I can't ignore anymore. Who and what do documentaries serve? And what good, if any, am I actually doing? This is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.[00:07:00]

So why the Crisis of Faith, other than the fact that it makes a decent first episode hook? Well, to tell that story, we're going to have to go back to the beginning. The story of my origins as a documentary audio producer. Documentarians who are listening right now will likely recognize this narrative format as the E structure, which is where you start in the middle at the action point to hook You circle back to the chronological start of the story before looping back to your opening cliffhanger to wrap things up.

It's common for documentary producers to start out their careers with projects about people already in their lives. If you're working with somebody you know, it probably means that you have what we in the biz call access. That means your documentary subject [00:08:00] already knows and probably likes you, so ideally they're then primed to bear their soul to you.

My first ever documentary subject was my childhood neighbor Nicola, who at the time was a 16 year old Olympic bound gymnast, on the verge of retiring because of a long standing hip injury. When I asked Nicola if she'd be up for me documenting this transitional time in her life, she said sure. Actually, she said that having a record of this time sounded really valuable to her.

So for me, I think by remembering what I've been through and how much I've accomplished, I'll feel a lot better, like, going forward.

She even thought her story might help other people.

Girls understanding that we're good the way we are, and that we have to do what's good for us, and that's the only thing that's gonna make us happy.

The story of this 16 year old gymnast about to quit her competitive sport seemed ideal for the Canadian national broadcaster, where I wanted to get my foot in the door. So I wrote up my pitch. The doc would [00:09:00] follow Nicola through this major life transition. It would give listeners a deep understanding of the intensity of her dream of making it to the Olympics.

And then it would have them witness the pain of that dream being ripped away. As I imagined it, we'd hear Nicola pick herself back up and begin to build the kind of self confidence that only comes when you reject other people's expectations or some narrative of how your life is supposed to go. The whole thing seemed like a powerful metaphor for the growing pains of young adulthood.

In our first interview, I asked Nicola to take me back to her early days of learning and falling in love with gymnastics.

And I remember standing on the podium, like getting my first gold medal. I thought it was the greatest thing ever.

She read to me from her old diaries where she chronicled all her struggles and triumphs. We even tried this experimental interviewing technique I'd heard about for bringing memories to life. I would [00:10:00] make Nicola lie on the floor in a dark room. Okay, so let's go into one of those moments. I want you to close your eyes, do it in the present tense.

So -

Oh, that's a great sound. Wait, can you do that one more time? That was so good.

Interview by interview, I got Nicola to talk me through the length of her entire career. The increasingly demanding coaches, the diet culture, the moving goal posts, and her chronic pain, which year by year was increasing steadily.

Even though I'm trying my best and sweating like crazy and everything hurts, I keep going and I'm still trying my best and my coach still isn't liking it.

Eventually, we got to Nicola's physical breaking point.

I just thought, okay, this is it. Like, I can't handle this pain anymore. It's not worth it.

When she finally decided to take a week off practice.

Suddenly a week turned into like three months and I was like, [00:11:00] oh, maybe I'm done.

And then how good it felt to finally have time to relax and hang out with friends and eat whatever she wanted, literally for the first time in her teenage life.

We are going for ice cream!

But when we started to talk about the present, these new big emotions started coming up.

Because I was in denial before, I didn't want to deal with it, now I, now it's been a year, so.

Nicola was feeling ashamed of quitting. Disappointed she hadn't pushed herself harder. Anxious that her coaches or teammates were mad at her or would judge her. It became clear that these interviews were not easy for Nicola. They definitely didn't seem therapeutic in the way I think we both imagined they'd be.

I don't really want to talk about it anymore.

At the same time, Nicola's [00:12:00] uncertainties, her grief, her angst, so relatable, which felt important. Just think about how rarely we get to hear young women thinking on the radio. So I pushed for us to keep going. A few months and around 12 hours of recording in, Nicola was tired. It started to feel like whenever I came over for an interview, she was doing me a favor. Which was awkward. But my deadline was coming up, and I reassured her, and myself, that it would all be worth it when the documentary came out. Like we talked about when we started, this piece could make a difference for someone listening. Another athlete with an injury, another young person in a difficult moment of transition.

What she was doing was making a contribution to [00:13:00] society.

When the documentary aired, I listened live. I heard Nicola's passion for the sport, the pain of confronting her limits, and what it means to assert yourself and find your identity as a young adult. My editor at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation loved what I made. A critic even wrote it up with a rave review.

For my first documentary. I was so proud. Pretty soon after that, I got offered a full time job making narrative podcasts. So the end of Nicola's career pretty much marked the beginning of mine. Over the next several years, I worked on all sorts of narrative podcasts. I worked on art shows and culture shows and sports journalism and even true crime.

I got really good at my [00:14:00] job. I prided myself on my ability to find just the right subjects, to coax even the most media shy among them to speak relatably, and with vulnerability. And in the process, I learned some of the basic rules and guidelines for journalism and documentary production. Things like, never show someone your questions before an interview.

And while you can, and should, check in with a subject to make sure you got all the facts right, you shouldn't let someone listen to your work before it goes to air. You also learn pretty quickly that if someone's volunteering to be in a story, they probably have an agenda of their own. It's better to seek out the right people to talk to yourself.

And do not, under any circumstances, pay your subjects or accept gifts from them.

All these rules are designed to ensure that everyone involved in your story is taking part for the right reasons, as they [00:15:00] say, to serve truth and the public interest. During this period of cutting my teeth in the industry, I also tried making a documentary story about myself. This story was about something I really wasn't proud of.

It was about my relationship with my first boyfriend. He had this diary that I used to secretly read when he was out of the house, and then I would change myself based on what he wrote to try to secure his love for me. I know, the bad kind of nosy. But what I found was that retelling the story as a kind of memoir a few years later was therapeutic.

It helped me process and own something that had previously been hard to talk or even to think about. But then people started reaching out to me about the piece. Not just listeners who liked it or found it relatable or familiar. I'm talking about other professional storytellers. First I got this email from a successful podcast host with a [00:16:00] huge audience, and he wanted to make a fictional adaptation of my story, which he did, and it was heralded by a few major publications as one of the best episodes of the year.

Then there was a filmmaker who emailed me about acquiring the rights. And then, more recently, a Hollywood TV producer reached out to ask if I'd like to tell the story for a docu series she was making about breakups.

Dear Jess, I am producing a new documentary series for a major network. The series will feature couples telling their most shocking, heartbreaking, and transformative breakup stories. I wanted to reach out after hearing your remarkable story. I found your story to be incredibly relatable and intriguing, and your storytelling is beautifully tender. Please let me know if there's a time we could connect to tell you more about the project and how we might work together to bring this story to life on camera.

This was well over a year ago now. A time when the docuseries seemed to be newly [00:17:00] established as the thing being pushed on every streaming platform. At the time, everyone was binging Cheer and Tiger King and Making a Murderer. It seemed like we couldn't get enough of true stories of regular people, tightly edited scenes charged with intimacy and immediacy.

I wrote back to the producer and said, sure, let's talk.

I was so excited that you were open to having this conversation. And, yeah, I just wanted to connect and sort of tell you a little bit about our project and see if there's a possibility that we could, uh, figure out a time for an interview -

And you said you're looking for like, you know, like heartbreaking, shocking, tragic whatever like are you looking for like anything average?

For me, you know, like there's no there's no kind of story that we're trying to find necessarily We're going to be looking for a devastating story and a funny story. So it's, I think it's going to sort of be like a wide [00:18:00] gamut, but ideally we're looking, you know, for storytellers who, who will confide in this team of filmmakers.

And heads up, this is not the real TV producer. It is a reenactment, compliments of my wonderful editor, Sara Nics. Thank you, Sara. The real TV producer, understandably, didn't want to be recorded, but I recorded my end of the call and took diligent notes. So this is how the conversation went.

What do you think I would have to get out of this experience because I've already told the story

A bunch of folks We've talked to they've been like since we talked all of these memories are coming back. I have this new perspective on this and Hopefully at the end of it everyone feels a little better I hope that this show can offer some sense of catharsis for people who are still digesting their relationship stories.

How does it work? Like, how, what kind of [00:19:00] payment happens? Who owns the story? Who owns the rights?

Yeah, uh, we are really not at that point yet. We're at the beginning of casting, and we don't have a sense of what that's gonna look like yet. At this point, we're really, we're really just interviewing folks. Right, and would I have, like, any editorial control or something over the story? Because, you know, the one that I produced, it was like, I made it, you know.

Um, probably not. Nope. You would be involved as an interviewee and a participant.

Okay, I see.

Everything we're doing right now is to sort of figure out the show and eventually pitch it. Yeah. So you have, you have all the power, basically.

Like, for now. For now. Until, until I give you guys permission to own my story.

Right, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think that's all, like, important to consider in engaging in this process. As you know, when someone is open to being interviewed, [00:20:00] you take control of a part of their story. And that's something that, you know, whether the interviewee is aware of this or not, they're relinquishing a narrative to the wider world that no longer belongs to them in the exact same way.

Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of scary.

Mm hmm. You know, this is, this is just about thinking about whether or not you're interested in telling the story, you know. Whether it's going to do something for you, I would say.

Hmm. Whether telling my story for this show was going to do something for me. That's what I needed to figure out. Even if I wanted a huge platform. Even if I was dying to be interviewed by a hotshot Hollywood director. Even if I thought I had a responsibility to share my story because of its power to serve society in a meaningful way, I [00:21:00] was also talking with someone making a show for a multi-billion dollar streaming corporation that you are probably subscribed to right now.

And to be honest, the conversation freaked me out. Because even though she makes highbrow reality TV, and I, the art of radio documentary, I knew her script, her platitudes, to a T. No, it's not paid. Yes, you can trust me. Imagine the platform. The interview process can be cathartic.

Okay, confession time There's something I haven't told you about that documentary I made about Nicola.

I listened to it and I was like, this is bad, and I deleted it, and that was that.

Nicola hated my documentary, and after it aired, we didn't talk for years. But I'd just gotten my first real media job, so I kept working. [00:22:00] I've gone on to build a portfolio with various networks and production companies and broadcasters in Canada, in the States, in the UK.

I've made documentaries about dozens of people's most intimate memories and experiences. But when I talk to this TV producer, it was a bit of a reality check. I realized I don't really buy my whole schtick about the benefits of documentary storytelling for everyone involved anymore. And I'd been lying to myself since the beginning.

Hello?

Hi.

How are you?

I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I wrote to Nicola, half expecting no response, and asked her if she'd be open to talking about that documentary we made all those years ago.

This is, this is going to be a little brutally honest, but because of the outcome of the doc, I honestly felt a little bit of resentment towards you, which is the truth, and it's not something I wanted to [00:23:00] feel, but it's, it's how I ended up feeling.

It turns out she had quite a few things to say.

Like the actual recording process, I didn't have much issue with it all other than it took a long time. I know how valuable it is to like, look back on an experience and figure out what you did right, what you did wrong, like that's a great thing. But this wasn't that, you know, like maybe when I was saying it out loud, it was originally, but then it was just so long that it became something else. And then the documentary itself wasn't like, if I'd written a reflection out, and then I'm like, okay, this is like, for sure what I was thinking, because I wrote this myself. You know, it was like what someone else thought of a lot of reflection I made. So if it had been like an accurate portrayal…

She thought my documentary was too much about giving up and not enough about persevering.

I feel like maybe the editors around you at the CBC were happy to hear your version of the story because they felt like it made them feel better. This sounds harsh, but this is how I truly feel. It made them feel better about themselves [00:24:00] to hear that like their mediocrity is okay. Like, not having drive is okay.

Did it make you feel better about yourself? Um, I don't know why you're laughing.

I wanted to talk to Nicola because I hoped that if I could get to the crux of where I'd let her down, I could stop feeling like such a hypocrite.

The thing is, it should have been important to you as a documentary maker that the person you're making the documentary about feels like they're being portrayed accurately. Had I been able to hear more preliminary versions, I would have been able to help steer you on the right track.

Hmm. And what do you think that would have looked like?

Showing me, like, when you started splicing things together, like, letting me listen to those soundbites so I could see where it was going. It also was a little incoherent.

I hear what Nicola is saying. But on the other hand, documentarians pride themselves on seeing what our subjects [00:25:00] don't. In finding the shared human truth inside of one person's experience. And if we were just telling the stories our subjects already believed about themselves, well, wouldn't that just be like working in advertising or doing PR?

I called Nicola when I started questioning the whole industry. Partially as a result of the process that we did together, like I'm interested in taking my work in this direction that's about the complicatedness of the documentary process and like -

Can I be honest with you?

Yeah.

What makes you think that other people are going to be interested in hearing that?

Oh my gosh. I don't know.

I'm sorry. I, I mean, it's about like, I feel like as a subject, I'm interested in the ethics of documentary making.

Yeah, that's interesting.[00:26:00]

This is a very comfortable room.

This is a psychologist's office.

I was just about to say.

I borrowed it. Yeah. It was just a, it was more affordable than a recording studio.

Perfect. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. You made it. We're at the part of the e structure where we've caught up to the cliffhanger from the beginning of the episode. Remember? Here we are, back at my auditions, in my rented psychologist's office.

Anyways, I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a, a girl with a microphone.

Yeah.

To reset the scene, picture me in an austere armchair, across from a small couch for all my auditioners, where I've set up two microphones and a box of Kleenex. The pillow embroidered with the words, healing is feeling, that was here when I first arrived to set up, has been carefully hidden behind the couch.

But why am I [00:27:00] here? And why am I having an existential crisis about my career choice? Let me tell you, it's not because Nicola didn't like the documentary I made about her. Yeah, that was unfortunate. But to my knowledge, nobody else has despised what I made about them. My issue is that I did everything right when I made that documentary.

I followed the rules, just like the TV producer who wanted to include me in her docu-series was doing. This is how the documentary industry works. Documentary subjects give us makers so much time and trust, and then we makers get to use their words, kind of however we want, and then we get paid, and we get kudos for the media products we've made with our subjects’ lives.

Documentarians and journalists frame telling your story as an opportunity, a platform for subjects, that doesn't cost them [00:28:00] anything but time. But it's way more complicated than that. And everyone who works in this industry knows it. We talk about how storytelling is socially valuable. But what about its social cost?

What about its cash value? What about how subjects’ vulnerability and insights are the basis for today's booming documentary content marketplace? And what about how this marketplace shapes how and what stories people hear and come to believe are important? People like you. I don't think the old rules are working anymore.

I want to try to do things differently. And that's why I posted my online auditions ad. It read, “Does your story need to be told? Tell it in a documentary. Seeking shocking, heartbreaking, transformative stories for a new series about the documentary industry.” And people [00:29:00] responded with every kind of story.

We had horror.

My right foot had came off dangling from the skin of my leg.

We had drama.

A dark immigrant accent and four white cops.

Comedy.

We wouldn't do any porn or anything. Maybe they paid a million dollars, we might.

I don't think anyone's paying a million bucks to see me.

Fantasy.

And I said, well, would you be willing to give me the lottery numbers? And he said, sure.

And a ton of tragedy.

You know, it's hard not having supportive family or not feeling understood by people because people don't understand, like, how this lady treated me.

But no matter the genre, my auditioners all wanted to tell their stories for an all too familiar reason.

It'll give me confidence and I guess make it concrete in my mind, saying it out [00:30:00] loud.

Finally freeing myself from something that like kind of kept me captive.

I'm thinking about it like as free therapy kind of.

So here's what I'm doing with this series. Over the next three episodes, I'm going to pick four documentary subjects from my cohort of auditioners. And over the next year, I'm going to make a documentary about all of them. But this time, I'm changing things up. I want to try out some new rules for documentary production.

Rules that go against a lot of what I was taught about how this production process is supposed to go. Let's start with rule number one. I'm going to be super straight with my subjects about what I think documentary really entails, an exchange. So I'm going to put exchange front and center in how I talk about this project.

Okay, and but why like stories of, of people? Like what, what got you into that subject in particular?

Well, stories of people are like the raw [00:31:00] material that this industry runs on. I think we take for granted the idea that telling your story is inherently valuable for the people doing the telling. Yeah, that is so true. You never like really think about that.

How can we make this both, you know, transformative for you and, you know, a good story for me, kind of, you know what I mean?

My words and your connections will be like a masterpiece.

Which brings me to rule number two. In the spirit of fair trade, I'm throwing out the textbook journalism commandment to never pay thy subjects.

I think the old textbook is overdue for a new edition. I was taught a standard that paying subjects is coercive, that it corrupts journalistic integrity. But with so much buzz around the value of telling your story, I'm of the mind that the integrity of non coercion may [00:32:00] already be corrupted. So everyone who spends time with me for this series will be paid $20 per hour.

I thought you said 50.

No, just 20. 20.

When you say anytime, we mean it. We spent together that means like preparing and things like that or just for the story itself.

Like literally time spent in the same room. Okay. Cause like, you know, you could argue that you have prepared your whole life. Yeah.

Um, I don't have the budget for that.

Just 20 bucks nowadays is like a lot, you know, thank you.

And that 20 an hour kind of goes for me, too. Let me lay it out for you. This is a relatively low budget production, and we allocated $20,000 of the series budget to pay me. But I quit my job to make this series, and it's basically all I'm working on right now.

So yeah, I think I'm gonna end up making about 20 an hour. I mean, I'm under no illusions that me getting paid $20 an hour for many [00:33:00] hours to produce my own project is the same as my documentary subjects getting paid 20 for every hour they spend working on my project, but it is the same in terms of hourly breakdown.

And it's what the budget affords. So that's how we landed on that number. And finally, rule number three. Normally, anyone who is extremely keen to be in a documentary would raise a red flag. But I've set this up precisely to ensure that all my documentary subjects really want this, hence my open call for participants.

But not only that, I'm also letting them know that they will set the course for what we cover in the documentary. The stories they share in their auditions will be our map, and I won't publish the series before running whatever I make by them.

So if you are selected, we will spend time together over the next six months [00:34:00] figuring out how to tell your story. So we'd work together to figure out a way to tell your story in a way that feels right for what your story is.

My hope is that together, these rules will help me make a documentary where all of us get what we want out of this.

There are all sorts of guidelines for documentary ethics. People have been critiquing and iterating the way this delicate art should best be practiced, literally since the invention of the camera. But folks, it's a brand new media landscape out here, and there's more money and market interest in this art form than ever before.

Since a profit driven market is defining what kinds of stories are valuable. We need new ethical frameworks to keep up. So while I'm far from the only person asking these questions right now, I'm making this series because I still love making and listening to and watching documentaries. But if I want to stay in [00:35:00] this industry, I've got to find a way of working that sits right with me.

Singing
I walk now and I find that it's nicer to be kind Than to be called all the time To be free, to call you mine And be able to see through it I'm a fraud, you always knew it Even if I don't do it on purpose But that's just on the surface Getting deeper makes me nervous But resisting doesn't service me anymore

From Radiotopia Presents, this was episode one of Shocking Heartbreaking Transformative.

A four part series about what happens to all of us, subjects, documentarians, and audiences, when [00:36:00] stories about our lives become products. I'm Jess Shane. I wrote and produced this episode, but I couldn't have done it without the support and trust of an amazing team. My editor is Sara Nics. Sara also played the TV producer in this episode.

The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich. Radiotopia's managing producer is Yooree Losordo. Mona Hassan, associate-produced this episode. Our sound designer and mix engineer was Michelle Macklem. And our music was composed by Eliza Niemi, with additional music by Michelle Macklem.

Our episode art is by Justin Broadbent. Additional thanks to contributing editor Jonna McCone, and the anonymous TV producer whose email provided me with the flashy name of this series. Thanks also to Kelly Anderson, Evan Cartwright, Ivana Dizdar, Jason Fox, Alex Juhasz, Jordan Lord, Andrew Lund. Eleanor McDowell, Christine White, Reiko Tahara, Sean Towgood, Mitra Kaboli, [00:37:00] Chioke I’Anson, and the VPM ICA Community Media Center, and many others.

This reporting was also supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists. And hopefully, catch you at the next episode.

Singing
I'm so sorry that I'm fake sometimes. It's just how I've been trained and I know that it doesn't justify my own fake little lies.

<v SPEAKER_1>You're listening to Radiotopia Presents from PRX's Radiotopia.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Before we get started, there's another podcast you'll want to check out from PRX.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Seen on Radio has a new series that tells the story of the only successful coup d'etat in US history, in Wilmington, North Carolina, November 1898.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's a story with disturbing resonance today, in our time of orchestrated attacks against democracy and the threat of political violence.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Look for Echoes of a Coup, Season 6 of Seen on Radio.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Listen now wherever you listen to podcasts.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Before we start, a quick note to say that this show is serialized.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So if you haven't listened to Episode 1 yet, please do so now.

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<v SPEAKER_3>After interviewing 30 strangers from the internet, I had to make some tough choices.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Select four subjects to feature in this documentary series.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Here's who I chose.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto, a Dominican-American fashion model and aspiring designer in his 20s, navigating new sobriety.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It'll give me confidence and reinforcing how I feel about myself.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Judy, a white woman in her 70s who became homeless after her beloved husband's death just a few months before COVID hit.

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<v SPEAKER_5>I'm more than happy to sign this.

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<v SPEAKER_5>It's just that every time I sign a document, I like a copy.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Jess, a Hawaiian punk musician in their 20s who found out they're adopted and have a biological brother who has long wanted Jess back in his life.

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<v SPEAKER_1>As soon as I saw the documentary on the thing, I was just interested.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I didn't know this was paid.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And last but not least, Michael, a middle-aged black writer and rapper who recently got out of prison and is now trying to become a professional public speaker.

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<v SPEAKER_3>My words and your connections will be like a masterpiece.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I call them all up to let them know they've been cast.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Hello.

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<v SPEAKER_3>We met at the documentary audition.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Oh yes, I remember you.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I wanted to give you a call because I'd love for you to participate in the documentary series if you're still interested.

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<v SPEAKER_6>I would love to, 100 percent, yes.

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<v SPEAKER_1>That's wonderful news.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Great.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You made my day, Jess.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, you made mine.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Here's my first subject, Ernesto, in his audition.

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<v SPEAKER_4>My name is Ernesto.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I was born and raised in the Bronx.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I'm 20 years old.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I work construction, and I'm a part-time model.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Of course Ernesto is a model.

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<v SPEAKER_3>He's got defined cheekbones, thick eyebrows, and these dark doe eyes with long lashes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And he carries himself with an aloofness you might expect from a notably beautiful 20-year-old.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Well, do you want to tell me about how you found my ad and why you decided to respond?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I was looking for side jobs for construction on Craigslist, and I saw an ad.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It was a lot to read, but I read through it, and I was like, oh wow.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It seems like a good way to get my foot in the door, get some experience in vocal things, because I get recommended to act a lot.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Even when I model, even though I don't say a word, they tell me I should act, because I'm very expressionate in my face and body language, and I study a lot of psychology.

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<v SPEAKER_3>You're quite mysterious.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I'm getting like a mysterious mystique vibe from you.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You know, I'm still gaining my comfortability and gaining my trust.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Of course.

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<v SPEAKER_3>As you know, in this series, I'm trying to do documentary differently.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I want to take on a collaborative approach to storytelling in which my subject sets the course, and then I try to realize their vision.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So I've asked Ernesto to tell me what he would like our documentary about him to be about.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And it turns out that he has come with options.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Two possible stories.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And my incomes would have cost.

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<v SPEAKER_4>The industry can be cut through.

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<v SPEAKER_3>The first sounds like a profile of Ernesto's experience in the fashion industry.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Models are expected to not to talk, to be pretty, you know, called objects.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You're a very good object.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And I've been referred to as an object.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But to me it's part of the game, being a model, and participating in such an extravagant industry.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But it's not easy.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And the second is about his long struggle with drug addiction.

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<v SPEAKER_4>My addiction was just, it was a reflection of a problem.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It was a symptom.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I was trying to self-medicate, you know.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I was too anxious and I didn't feel comfortable with my skin, so more drugs would help me overcome that.

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<v SPEAKER_3>He tells me about the addiction rehab program he's been enrolled in since he was 16.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Four years since he started the program, he's finally about to complete it.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's not a conventional rehab, it's actually a therapeutic community.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So Ernesto is offering two narratives.

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<v SPEAKER_3>There's either Ernesto the young model navigating a cutthroat fashion industry, or Ernesto newly sober, restarting his life after addictions treatment.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Normally, I have a detailed plan for any story I'm trying to tell.

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<v SPEAKER_3>That's part of the savvy documentarian's business plan.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Pitch something with a clear focus, a narrative that you can outline, before you even start collecting tape.

00:06:11.234 --> 00:06:15.694

<v SPEAKER_3>That way, you can make sure you don't waste your time or your network's money.

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<v SPEAKER_3>In practice, that means that my interviews are usually pretty directive.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Documentarians tend to steer conversations and interviews, ask for more details where they want them, guide the subject to where we think there will be scenes and action.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And we definitely made sure that any subject we've picked can deliver the goods.

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<v SPEAKER_6>This feels like kind of awful to say out loud, but I think my reaction to the tape was sort of like, this person seems really nice, but he has kind of, I mean, it's a very generic sounding story, you know?

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<v SPEAKER_3>That's Radiotopia's executive producer Audrey Mardavich.

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<v SPEAKER_3>After I played her and the rest of the Radiotopia team some of the tape from my auditions.

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<v SPEAKER_3>This was before we'd settled on the four subjects.

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<v SPEAKER_3>It may sound harsh if you don't work in media, but Audrey is just doing what everyone in our industry does, deciding on which stories are worth telling or not, based on what we think the audience wants.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And as cringy as it may sound to call someone's life story generic, let's be honest, you're listening to this right now because you're hoping to hear something that will entertain you and maybe teach you something new.

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<v SPEAKER_3>You want something that feels fresh, and I want to give you that.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Plus, Radiotopia is a selective boutique network, so they're literally banking on me producing something that'll turn heads.

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<v SPEAKER_3>You know, this is kind of an interesting process for me because, you know, we're going to make this documentary about you and your life over the next however many months.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But I don't know exactly what the documentary is yet, you know?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, so back to Ernesto's two pitches, modelling and addiction.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Part of my project is to challenge myself not to have a destination in mind, to let my subjects lead the way, despite the dangers of whipping up something generic.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So when Ernesto invites me to follow him behind the scenes at a high-profile fashion show he's walking a couple weeks later, I jump at the opportunity.

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<v SPEAKER_5>Hello, how are you?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Do you want us to have a seat over here?

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<v SPEAKER_3>We meet a few blocks from the venue.

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<v SPEAKER_3>It's a rainy, grey day, and every other person walking by seems like they're either carrying a bulky camera or is over six feet tall.

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<v SPEAKER_3>We take shelter under an awning and scope out the crowd.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I'm wondering, how are you feeling?

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<v SPEAKER_3>How do you normally feel before shows?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Usually pretty nervous, but now I know the nervousness is natural and it's a beautiful part of life to embrace, you know.

00:09:04.994 --> 00:09:08.314

<v SPEAKER_4>You don't get to be this anxious every day, you know.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Hopefully this interview isn't amping up the nerves.

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<v SPEAKER_4>No, it's actually nice to sit with a familiar face before I step into the chaos that is a fashion show.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto tells me he's really excited about this show, particularly because the designer is Dominican American, like him.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's a very meaningful show.

00:09:28.414 --> 00:09:29.854

<v SPEAKER_4>It's not just about the fashion.

00:09:29.874 --> 00:09:32.054

<v SPEAKER_4>He's uplifting an entire community.

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<v SPEAKER_3>When Ernesto finishes his cigarette, we mosey over to the venue.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So like what's the money like for a gig like this?

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<v SPEAKER_6>I'm just curious.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Coffee.

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<v SPEAKER_6>What?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_6>Really?

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<v SPEAKER_4>For me at least.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So you don't know what the rate is?

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<v SPEAKER_6>But you wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't money?

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<v SPEAKER_4>We're doing it.

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<v SPEAKER_6>Really?

00:09:53.434 --> 00:09:54.154

<v SPEAKER_4>For the exposure.

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<v SPEAKER_3>For the exposure.

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<v SPEAKER_4>If it was a random brand, I wouldn't.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But it was a well-known person or brand, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Huh.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's also an experience, you know.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But yeah, I got no rate.

00:10:10.654 --> 00:10:12.134

<v SPEAKER_3>Are the other models getting rates?

00:10:12.154 --> 00:10:12.874

<v SPEAKER_4>Some models.

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<v SPEAKER_4>They have a big name, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Most models look free, though.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Really?

00:10:17.234 --> 00:10:18.874

<v SPEAKER_4>And this is New York City.

00:10:18.894 --> 00:10:19.894

<v SPEAKER_4>This is not Paris.

00:10:20.154 --> 00:10:21.774

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, that's still shocking to me.

00:10:21.794 --> 00:10:22.654

<v SPEAKER_3>It's like you're working.

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<v SPEAKER_3>We arrive at some unmarked back doors and Ernesto confidently whisks me past security into a bustling dressing room.

00:10:40.534 --> 00:10:42.314

<v SPEAKER_3>But there are no empty chairs.

00:10:42.814 --> 00:10:44.074

<v SPEAKER_3>It's packed in here.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And loitering around the room are a bunch of other models, all waiting for a space to open up.

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<v SPEAKER_3>It looks like the majority of the models here are also Latinx.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I'm Dominican and Irish.

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<v SPEAKER_4>How about you?

00:11:07.334 --> 00:11:08.614

<v SPEAKER_4>The diversity is growing.

00:11:08.654 --> 00:11:11.194

<v SPEAKER_4>Back in the 90s, it was strictly European.

00:11:11.214 --> 00:11:12.814

<v SPEAKER_4>You had a couple of people living.

00:11:12.834 --> 00:11:14.414

<v SPEAKER_4>Now it's really growing.

00:11:14.414 --> 00:11:15.214

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, totally.

00:11:15.874 --> 00:11:20.414

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto greets a photographer friend, and they stand around talking shop for 30 or so minutes.

00:11:21.174 --> 00:11:23.434

<v SPEAKER_3>Then the guy eyes my mic in bag of gear.

00:11:23.814 --> 00:11:26.734

<v SPEAKER_3>And Ernesto introduces me as his documentarian.

00:11:26.894 --> 00:11:27.914

<v SPEAKER_3>The guy's really impressed.

00:11:28.554 --> 00:11:30.134

<v SPEAKER_3>Says he loves documentaries.

00:11:30.594 --> 00:11:31.654

<v SPEAKER_4>What brought you guys together?

00:11:32.794 --> 00:11:36.694

<v SPEAKER_6>I'm making a documentary about some cool people, including Ernesto.

00:11:38.414 --> 00:11:40.634

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm worthy.

00:11:40.654 --> 00:11:41.874

<v SPEAKER_1>Godspeed, that seems difficult.

00:11:42.154 --> 00:11:43.654

<v SPEAKER_4>Is it all audio?

00:11:43.674 --> 00:11:44.794

<v SPEAKER_3>It's just audio, yeah.

00:11:44.814 --> 00:11:45.914

<v SPEAKER_1>Damn, that's harder.

00:11:46.914 --> 00:11:48.074

<v SPEAKER_3>But you know what's easier about it?

00:11:48.214 --> 00:11:49.494

<v SPEAKER_6>You can edit stuff together.

00:11:50.194 --> 00:11:50.854

<v SPEAKER_6>Mishmash.

00:11:50.874 --> 00:11:53.514

<v SPEAKER_1>And create pace and rhythm is in there.

00:11:53.514 --> 00:11:54.194

<v SPEAKER_1>I get that.

00:11:55.414 --> 00:11:58.254

<v SPEAKER_3>While we've been talking, it's gotten a lot more crowded.

00:12:00.234 --> 00:12:02.874

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, maybe there's a chair that's going to be open right here.

00:12:04.354 --> 00:12:05.234

<v SPEAKER_3>Just get in there.

00:12:06.034 --> 00:12:07.054

<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, great.

00:12:07.314 --> 00:12:08.674

<v SPEAKER_3>We are in business.

00:12:09.214 --> 00:12:12.494

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto is in the makeup chair and it's about time.

00:12:13.194 --> 00:12:18.034

<v SPEAKER_3>I imagine you've had enough of the chatting and waiting around for the action to start.

00:12:18.894 --> 00:12:20.294

<v SPEAKER_3>Don't worry, I'm on it.

00:12:20.974 --> 00:12:23.454

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto, I need you to describe what we're looking at here.

00:12:23.474 --> 00:12:24.114

<v SPEAKER_3>So, where are we?

00:12:24.634 --> 00:12:33.474

<v SPEAKER_3>Any decent documentarian is able to do their work thanks to a trusty bag of tricks, like getting people to describe things in detail.

00:12:33.874 --> 00:12:35.934

<v SPEAKER_4>We're behind the stage at a fashion show.

00:12:36.134 --> 00:12:37.254

<v SPEAKER_4>This is a huge show.

00:12:37.274 --> 00:12:39.174

<v SPEAKER_4>This is like Balenciaga.

00:12:39.494 --> 00:12:41.734

<v SPEAKER_4>You do this show, you're going to be seen in Europe a lot.

00:12:42.734 --> 00:12:48.174

<v SPEAKER_3>The secret sauce that amps up pretty much any documentary is sound design, with a little bit of scoring.

00:12:50.154 --> 00:12:52.754

<v SPEAKER_3>Buckle up for sound designer Michelle Macklem.

00:12:53.314 --> 00:12:54.254

<v SPEAKER_3>Take it away, Mish.

00:12:55.854 --> 00:12:57.074

<v SPEAKER_4>All the models are lined up.

00:12:57.514 --> 00:13:01.674

<v SPEAKER_4>They're getting their nails done, their hair done, everything done at the same time.

00:13:01.694 --> 00:13:04.094

<v SPEAKER_4>They're on their phones taking selfies.

00:13:04.454 --> 00:13:06.454

<v SPEAKER_4>And the photographers getting photos.

00:13:06.474 --> 00:13:09.174

<v SPEAKER_4>The production team is running around getting the looks together.

00:13:09.194 --> 00:13:11.614

<v SPEAKER_4>I put on every look.

00:13:11.854 --> 00:13:15.574

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm doing a denim skirt with a big utility jacket, a lot of pockets and mesh.

00:13:16.894 --> 00:13:18.114

<v SPEAKER_4>Almost everyone's wearing heels.

00:13:18.314 --> 00:13:21.694

<v SPEAKER_4>This triple runway, three times a round, it's like a zigzag.

00:13:21.714 --> 00:13:22.714

<v SPEAKER_4>It's chaotic.

00:13:22.834 --> 00:13:23.474

<v SPEAKER_4>It's just crazy.

00:13:23.494 --> 00:13:23.614

<v SPEAKER_4>Crazy.

00:13:29.827 --> 00:13:32.567

<v SPEAKER_3>But perhaps the most essential tool is editing.

00:13:33.247 --> 00:13:46.287

<v SPEAKER_3>Just like Michelle can build up a vibe from scratch, everything you hear in your average documentary has been carefully curated and constructed for many more hours of recording with thousands of invisible internal cuts.

00:13:49.467 --> 00:13:54.907

<v SPEAKER_3>So let's go back to Ernesto's description of what he's wearing for the runway, the denim skirt with the utility jacket.

00:13:55.667 --> 00:13:57.947

<v SPEAKER_3>Here's the original unedited recording.

00:13:57.967 --> 00:14:09.367

<v SPEAKER_4>What I put on every look, I think I'm doing a denim dress skirt type of thing with a big, you know, it's called like a utility jacket, a lot of pockets and mesh.

00:14:10.667 --> 00:14:11.647

<v SPEAKER_3>And that became...

00:14:12.027 --> 00:14:16.087

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm doing a denim skirt with a big utility jacket, a lot of pockets and mesh.

00:14:16.507 --> 00:14:22.747

<v SPEAKER_3>So as you can hear, Ernesto's original take drags a bit, so you don't get the full force of how epic he looks.

00:14:23.567 --> 00:14:27.127

<v SPEAKER_3>To create that impact, I snip away all the words I don't need.

00:14:27.147 --> 00:14:33.647

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm doing a denim skirt with a big utility jacket, a lot of pockets and mesh.

00:14:41.347 --> 00:14:43.787

<v SPEAKER_3>I also decide on the order of the clips.

00:14:44.307 --> 00:14:50.627

<v SPEAKER_3>This could mean taking a reflection from the end of an interview and sticking it at the beginning to help emphasize a certain angle.

00:14:51.407 --> 00:15:00.227

<v SPEAKER_3>Sometimes to flesh out an idea, I'll group clips on a theme from two different interviews together and then pass it off as though it was spoken all in one go.

00:15:01.027 --> 00:15:03.367

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not changing crucial information.

00:15:03.787 --> 00:15:05.407

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm just massaging a little.

00:15:06.027 --> 00:15:14.787

<v SPEAKER_3>Like I told Ernesto's photographer friend, it's easy to see how editing can change the content and context of what people are talking about.

00:15:15.567 --> 00:15:17.887

<v SPEAKER_3>This is part of how story is constructed.

00:15:18.787 --> 00:15:26.807

<v SPEAKER_3>And depending on the outlet and imagined audience, whether it's News at Five or Dateline, these choices, they're going to look different.

00:15:28.587 --> 00:15:34.287

<v SPEAKER_3>But even the greatest sound design and most strategic editing don't make a great story.

00:15:34.887 --> 00:15:35.867

<v SPEAKER_3>We still need meat.

00:15:35.887 --> 00:15:40.267

<v SPEAKER_4>I want to hear about the grimy, the grimy stuff, I guess.

00:15:41.027 --> 00:15:41.427

<v SPEAKER_3>Do I?

00:15:41.707 --> 00:15:44.087

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm saying that's what you want to hear about more.

00:15:44.267 --> 00:15:46.127

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I want to hear about all of it.

00:15:46.427 --> 00:15:49.667

<v SPEAKER_3>I guess I had some questions about sort of the challenges of the industry.

00:15:49.767 --> 00:15:51.027

<v SPEAKER_3>You've talked about a few things.

00:15:51.047 --> 00:15:56.707

<v SPEAKER_3>Like one of them that you talked about was sort of this feeling of objectification or feeling like certain people expect certain things.

00:15:59.287 --> 00:16:02.867

<v SPEAKER_4>Being a model, you are an object at their disposal.

00:16:03.407 --> 00:16:05.607

<v SPEAKER_4>They will tell you show up here tomorrow.

00:16:05.927 --> 00:16:10.347

<v SPEAKER_4>And even if you have work, you have to show up or they will look at you like he doesn't want a model.

00:16:10.887 --> 00:16:17.687

<v SPEAKER_4>Finding what haircut looks best on me, what walk and just what style I should give off to the world, what is really me.

00:16:17.707 --> 00:16:19.887

<v SPEAKER_3>You or what will sell as you?

00:16:20.427 --> 00:16:23.407

<v SPEAKER_4>And that's a big controversy in modeling.

00:16:23.547 --> 00:16:28.607

<v SPEAKER_4>How many of these people are actually just trying to cater to an audience that they know they can make money out of.

00:16:29.127 --> 00:16:33.767

<v SPEAKER_4>And growing up in the Bronx, walking always told a story.

00:16:33.787 --> 00:16:37.787

<v SPEAKER_4>A lot of gangs would limp with a certain foot to express what gang they were with.

00:16:38.747 --> 00:16:43.147

<v SPEAKER_4>And sometimes I will tell the designer which walk do you want to see.

00:16:43.167 --> 00:16:45.407

<v SPEAKER_4>Do you want to see my walk or do you want to see the model walk?

00:16:45.427 --> 00:16:51.007

<v SPEAKER_4>If you look at a lot of fashion shows, models aren't even allowed to move their neck or express themselves.

00:16:51.287 --> 00:16:55.427

<v SPEAKER_4>It feels very limiting at times when you are a self-proclaimed artist.

00:16:56.227 --> 00:17:02.427

<v SPEAKER_4>So I don't know if that's the response you were looking for, but I kept it pretty blunt.

00:17:02.947 --> 00:17:03.627

<v SPEAKER_3>No, that's great.

00:17:04.307 --> 00:17:05.707

<v SPEAKER_6>I guess I got some questions about...

00:17:05.727 --> 00:17:07.727

<v SPEAKER_3>But is it great?

00:17:10.947 --> 00:17:15.547

<v SPEAKER_3>On the subway home, something about the fashion angle isn't sitting right with me.

00:17:16.767 --> 00:17:23.207

<v SPEAKER_3>At his audition, Ernesto teased all this stuff about the seedy underbelly of a glamorous industry.

00:17:23.627 --> 00:17:36.327

<v SPEAKER_3>But the things I found most interesting in the story that began to emerge in the four hours I spent at the fashion show were not so much about Ernesto, but a structural issue in the diversifying fashion industry.

00:17:37.067 --> 00:17:52.487

<v SPEAKER_3>How Ernesto and other, particularly racialized models are objectified, asked to be a canvas for someone else's brand, or to commodify their culture for no or very little money.

00:17:53.367 --> 00:18:02.947

<v SPEAKER_3>What I hear is a story about how bodies like Ernesto's are being used by the fashion industry, and at the same time are going unseen.

00:18:02.967 --> 00:18:09.307

<v SPEAKER_3>I think it's rich territory.

00:18:10.087 --> 00:18:21.267

<v SPEAKER_3>But I'm a white woman from Canada, and there are definitely many people who do a much better job than me of understanding all the nuanced racial dynamics at play in this story.

00:18:22.167 --> 00:18:31.187

<v SPEAKER_3>Also, the story is much bigger than Ernesto, and to do it well I'd need to talk to a lot more people, and I just don't have the production budget to take that on.

00:18:32.467 --> 00:18:43.527

<v SPEAKER_3>The series I sold to Radiotopia features personal stories, and that's partially because stories of individuals facing struggles are easier and faster to produce and to deliver on.

00:18:45.087 --> 00:18:49.667

<v SPEAKER_3>So now I make an executive decision, a practical and professional one.

00:18:50.387 --> 00:18:55.187

<v SPEAKER_3>To stick to the brief of the project, I've now already been partially paid for.

00:18:55.847 --> 00:19:01.467

<v SPEAKER_3>To keep the stories contained to the personal and work with the resources I do have access to.

00:19:02.107 --> 00:19:05.607

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm going to ask Ernesto if we can pivot to his addiction story.

00:19:09.607 --> 00:19:10.107

<v SPEAKER_3>Heads up.

00:19:10.467 --> 00:19:16.647

<v SPEAKER_3>When we're back from the break, things are going to get real with Ernesto, and there will be talk about drug use and self harm.

00:19:26.590 --> 00:19:29.610

<v SPEAKER_3>I arranged to meet Ernesto at his apartment in the Bronx.

00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:40.690

<v SPEAKER_3>There are dishes stacked in the sink, overflowing ashtrays that look almost like art sculptures, and piles of leather and lace and denim.

00:19:40.710 --> 00:19:44.130

<v SPEAKER_4>There's fabric everywhere, cameras, trinkets.

00:19:44.870 --> 00:19:49.550

<v SPEAKER_3>The centrepiece of the room is a sewing machine, and a rack of structured garments.

00:19:50.410 --> 00:19:53.030

<v SPEAKER_3>It turns out that Ernesto's a fashion designer too.

00:19:53.730 --> 00:19:55.130

<v SPEAKER_4>I made this with rabbit fur.

00:19:55.150 --> 00:19:56.790

<v SPEAKER_4>It's a mantle with a necklace.

00:19:57.930 --> 00:19:58.950

<v SPEAKER_4>Just to put it on.

00:19:58.970 --> 00:20:00.550

<v SPEAKER_6>Trip it over your shoulders.

00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:01.570

<v SPEAKER_4>You ever felt rabbit fur?

00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:03.270

<v SPEAKER_4>It's amazing.

00:20:03.330 --> 00:20:04.550

<v SPEAKER_4>Protection, strength.

00:20:04.750 --> 00:20:05.650

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah.

00:20:06.790 --> 00:20:07.570

<v SPEAKER_4>These are cool.

00:20:08.910 --> 00:20:12.630

<v SPEAKER_4>I think these are your style a little bit for a tea party.

00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:14.690

<v SPEAKER_4>Zipper, no waistband.

00:20:16.430 --> 00:20:18.210

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto, these are really gorgeous.

00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:21.230

<v SPEAKER_4>I have a lot of potential.

00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:22.590

<v SPEAKER_4>I just need the infrastructure.

00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:24.250

<v SPEAKER_4>You know what I mean?

00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:31.770

<v SPEAKER_3>He grabs an armful of clothes off the couch, dumps them on a side table to make room for us, and then launches into his story.

00:20:31.790 --> 00:20:38.850

<v SPEAKER_4>I knew I was a drug addict before I even touched drugs, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, all of them.

00:20:39.410 --> 00:20:43.890

<v SPEAKER_4>I would watch the documentaries about them, 27's Club, heroin addicts.

00:20:45.010 --> 00:20:48.310

<v SPEAKER_4>I saw Refuge and all these stars and stuff.

00:20:48.570 --> 00:20:52.350

<v SPEAKER_4>My mom and dad divorced when I came, basically.

00:20:52.390 --> 00:20:55.670

<v SPEAKER_4>My dad wasn't ready, and it's been like an absence in my life.

00:20:55.910 --> 00:21:00.770

<v SPEAKER_4>And it's hard for a kid to not have his dad when he wants him, you know, when he meets him.

00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:03.150

<v SPEAKER_4>I'd get bullied and called names.

00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:04.810

<v SPEAKER_4>I felt like a failure.

00:21:05.290 --> 00:21:06.490

<v SPEAKER_4>Couldn't make anyone happy.

00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:08.170

<v SPEAKER_4>So I was all alone.

00:21:10.350 --> 00:21:17.610

<v SPEAKER_4>Once I smoked weed, I was with people smoking weed together, giggling, and I felt that community, I felt like I belonged.

00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.450

<v SPEAKER_4>I said, fuck everything else.

00:21:20.690 --> 00:21:22.450

<v SPEAKER_4>This is what I want out of life.

00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:27.550

<v SPEAKER_4>It only took a couple months for me to get into Percocets.

00:21:29.070 --> 00:21:33.030

<v SPEAKER_4>Getting high on opioids was like, in orgasm, it would last hours.

00:21:34.710 --> 00:21:37.110

<v SPEAKER_4>And you just feel warm all over like you're being hugged.

00:21:39.070 --> 00:21:41.010

<v SPEAKER_4>And that's what I want.

00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:45.630

<v SPEAKER_4>It was like the hug I never got from friends and my dad and mom.

00:21:48.350 --> 00:21:50.530

<v SPEAKER_4>And I was so drawn to it, I became addicted.

00:21:52.210 --> 00:21:54.130

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, sometimes the drugs aren't enough.

00:21:54.150 --> 00:21:58.590

<v SPEAKER_4>I would get high and not even feel better.

00:21:58.610 --> 00:22:00.450

<v SPEAKER_4>I would still feel the sadness.

00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:06.270

<v SPEAKER_4>And I'd start getting on my knees and praying, like I'll promise I won't steal anymore.

00:22:06.290 --> 00:22:09.830

<v SPEAKER_4>Just please, Lord, help me, get me clean, whatever I've got to do, please.

00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:14.750

<v SPEAKER_4>And then you get $10 and you're back buying drugs.

00:22:14.970 --> 00:22:16.150

<v SPEAKER_4>And I just felt hopeless.

00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:16.710

<v SPEAKER_4>And that was it.

00:22:16.770 --> 00:22:18.790

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm an addict for life, there's nothing I can do.

00:22:26.175 --> 00:22:31.595

<v SPEAKER_3>Eventually, Ernesto's family finds out just how bad things are.

00:22:32.255 --> 00:22:33.355

<v SPEAKER_4>And they said, that's it.

00:22:34.275 --> 00:22:38.435

<v SPEAKER_4>We're going to drive straight to an institution, wherever you can do.

00:22:39.215 --> 00:22:44.055

<v SPEAKER_3>But as much as he hates being addicted, the treatments don't seem very useful.

00:22:44.335 --> 00:22:49.215

<v SPEAKER_4>It became like a fun game to go into programs and just mess around.

00:22:49.615 --> 00:22:53.075

<v SPEAKER_4>I've teased this corny white old lady psychiatrist.

00:22:53.095 --> 00:23:00.095

<v SPEAKER_4>One time a preacher came in in the psych ward and he gave us business cards.

00:23:00.155 --> 00:23:03.535

<v SPEAKER_4>If you ever want to talk about the Lord, give me a call.

00:23:04.515 --> 00:23:07.535

<v SPEAKER_4>And I took the card and I started cutting my wrist with it.

00:23:08.315 --> 00:23:12.775

<v SPEAKER_4>And I started painting my hand with blood and I started giving myself a henna thing with blood.

00:23:12.795 --> 00:23:21.035

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, they keep telling addicts, just stop, stop getting high, like what's your problem?

00:23:21.655 --> 00:23:22.435

<v SPEAKER_4>Just be good.

00:23:22.495 --> 00:23:25.115

<v SPEAKER_4>But why would they want to be good?

00:23:25.635 --> 00:23:28.055

<v SPEAKER_4>Why would they want whatever they mean is good?

00:23:29.055 --> 00:23:31.635

<v SPEAKER_4>Why would they want to be in society?

00:23:40.526 --> 00:23:43.566

<v SPEAKER_3>As I'm listening, I'm getting these tingles.

00:23:44.406 --> 00:23:58.746

<v SPEAKER_3>This happens to me when I transition from performing interest as the interviewer, nodding, eye contact, following the script of the questions I've prepared, to getting sucked in, feeling what my interviewee is saying.

00:23:59.506 --> 00:24:04.386

<v SPEAKER_3>The tingles are a telltale sign that the power of story is working on me.

00:24:05.306 --> 00:24:08.986

<v SPEAKER_3>They remind me of my old dream to build empathy through documentary.

00:24:10.186 --> 00:24:16.026

<v SPEAKER_3>If someone's words can touch me in the moment this way, I know they'll have the power to work on my listeners too.

00:24:18.546 --> 00:24:24.546

<v SPEAKER_3>After a slew of different failed programs, Ernesto winds up in this last treatment program.

00:24:25.446 --> 00:24:28.846

<v SPEAKER_4>I came in, I was all the ghetto, I guess.

00:24:29.566 --> 00:24:36.066

<v SPEAKER_4>I became my worst enemy in hopes to not be a victim of it anymore.

00:24:36.526 --> 00:24:38.446

<v SPEAKER_4>And they called it an image.

00:24:38.466 --> 00:24:42.106

<v SPEAKER_4>They said, Ernesto, you have an image, a negative image, you need to change.

00:24:43.786 --> 00:24:48.286

<v SPEAKER_4>So I let go, and I complied, and I found myself.

00:24:52.946 --> 00:24:55.906

<v SPEAKER_3>It's been four years of sobriety, Ernesto says.

00:24:56.526 --> 00:25:01.606

<v SPEAKER_3>He looks around his apartment, at the fabric and the clothes, at the sewing machine.

00:25:01.626 --> 00:25:03.846

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm a brilliant artist.

00:25:04.086 --> 00:25:09.326

<v SPEAKER_4>I tell myself that like in affirmation, because I don't always think it or feel it.

00:25:10.406 --> 00:25:16.286

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, it's very scary when I get depressed or sad or overwhelmed.

00:25:16.306 --> 00:25:20.346

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't have drugs to escape reality.

00:25:20.366 --> 00:25:22.946

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't have bad habits.

00:25:23.006 --> 00:25:24.666

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't have those escape routes.

00:25:25.186 --> 00:25:27.826

<v SPEAKER_4>I never thought growing up I'd be an artist or make clothes.

00:25:29.246 --> 00:25:33.106

<v SPEAKER_4>This is me like taking my emotions and letting them flow out.

00:25:35.346 --> 00:25:45.306

<v SPEAKER_4>I hope I have the opportunity to bring this to the world and share my story, if not through something like this or vocally or on a podium.

00:25:47.286 --> 00:25:53.466

<v SPEAKER_4>I hope someone will look at my clothes and see some emotion and some triumph and some hope.

00:26:02.986 --> 00:26:03.826

<v SPEAKER_6>How is this going for you?

00:26:03.846 --> 00:26:04.406

<v SPEAKER_6>How are you doing?

00:26:04.466 --> 00:26:07.346

<v SPEAKER_6>How is it feeling to talk about all this stuff?

00:26:07.806 --> 00:26:10.206

<v SPEAKER_4>I feel like I don't know what to say for some of it.

00:26:12.146 --> 00:26:19.046

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, I'm used to telling my story to addicts in the room full of addicts, but what happens when I tell it to the world or someone I don't really know?

00:26:19.246 --> 00:26:19.946

<v SPEAKER_6>How is it different?

00:26:21.506 --> 00:26:24.406

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't know if you relate or if you understand, you know what I mean?

00:26:24.426 --> 00:26:30.566

<v SPEAKER_4>It's easier to tell an addict, man, I really want to use, because I know they'll get it and they can give me words.

00:26:33.106 --> 00:26:40.786

<v SPEAKER_4>I know you want the engagement, the, wow, it must be tough for him to still feel like an addict, even four years apart.

00:26:42.526 --> 00:26:46.726

<v SPEAKER_4>Being in the industry, embellishing is important in entertainment.

00:26:47.266 --> 00:26:49.406

<v SPEAKER_4>I can tell a story in a thousand different ways.

00:26:49.486 --> 00:26:56.126

<v SPEAKER_4>I want to tell it in the most engaging, intriguing, funny, but the one that brings out the most emotion, you know, in this art.

00:26:57.206 --> 00:27:10.206

<v SPEAKER_4>So I don't really know what I should sound like, how I should project my voice, how I should be a little deeper and if I should talk fast, put on a little accent.

00:27:10.226 --> 00:27:11.066

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't really know what.

00:27:14.386 --> 00:27:15.666

<v SPEAKER_3>What do you think, listener?

00:27:16.926 --> 00:27:19.346

<v SPEAKER_3>Do you need something different from Ernesto?

00:27:20.686 --> 00:27:28.446

<v SPEAKER_3>Do you need him to tell his story in a different way, with a different accent, or more drama?

00:27:29.626 --> 00:27:31.106

<v SPEAKER_3>Do you have the tingles?

00:27:32.346 --> 00:27:39.746

<v SPEAKER_3>Does Ernesto's story feel worth your time and attention, or does it seem generic?

00:27:41.046 --> 00:27:46.006

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm always wondering what you need, my listener, as I wade through moments like this.

00:27:46.866 --> 00:27:49.206

<v SPEAKER_3>Moments that probably won't make the final cut.

00:27:50.606 --> 00:27:58.846

<v SPEAKER_3>One of the things I really like about Ernesto is that he seems to get that any story he's telling me is going to become a product.

00:27:59.566 --> 00:28:01.866

<v SPEAKER_3>He's constantly producing himself.

00:28:02.746 --> 00:28:06.266

<v SPEAKER_3>In some ways, this makes him an ideal partner in my project.

00:28:07.446 --> 00:28:35.166

<v SPEAKER_3>I feel like something that I've been struggling with, I guess, as an outsider that's trying to help you tell your story is trying to get beyond cliche, you know, beyond a surface level narrative of like, I had trauma, I became a drug addict, now I'm clean, you know, but I just...

00:28:35.906 --> 00:28:36.706

<v SPEAKER_4>What is that?

00:28:36.726 --> 00:28:39.946

<v SPEAKER_4>And that's what you're here to teach me or to guide me to.

00:28:40.086 --> 00:28:42.526

<v SPEAKER_4>We can talk about my current struggles more.

00:28:42.646 --> 00:28:44.146

<v SPEAKER_4>I know I've rambled a lot.

00:28:44.646 --> 00:28:45.186

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want to...

00:28:45.446 --> 00:28:48.826

<v SPEAKER_4>Well, you're guiding me to it, you know, because if I just rambled and rambled, it wouldn't...

00:28:50.746 --> 00:29:01.246

<v SPEAKER_3>What do you want the documentary to be like, you know, we've recorded a bunch of hours together so far, but like, do you have a sort of vision of what it should be?

00:29:01.266 --> 00:29:06.686

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm trying not to think about it because I don't know how all audio works and stuff.

00:29:07.566 --> 00:29:11.246

<v SPEAKER_3>It's been a few hours, and I think we're both running out of steam.

00:29:11.886 --> 00:29:17.966

<v SPEAKER_4>And I'm trying not to be whistleblower, like, yeah, in the modeling industry they try to rape me.

00:29:18.226 --> 00:29:24.306

<v SPEAKER_4>I could talk about police brutality, I mean, I don't want to do that because that's like selling out and...

00:29:25.306 --> 00:29:26.526

<v SPEAKER_6>I'm not trying to get you to do that.

00:29:27.466 --> 00:29:30.406

<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, but that's, it's a route, you know.

00:29:32.166 --> 00:29:35.966

<v SPEAKER_3>We're both tired, and I'm kind of at a loss of what to do next.

00:29:36.406 --> 00:29:38.426

<v SPEAKER_3>So I decide to wrap things up here.

00:29:43.106 --> 00:29:50.946

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I mean, I guess that's that's part of this the struggle that I had because it's like, it's easy to say, oh, I want him to steer the ship.

00:29:51.986 --> 00:29:53.666

<v SPEAKER_3>But like, he doesn't know how.

00:29:54.026 --> 00:30:03.526

<v SPEAKER_3>I met my bi-weekly editorial meeting with the Radiotopia team, talking about what I've recorded so far with Ernesto and how I'm feeling about this process.

00:30:04.146 --> 00:30:14.786

<v SPEAKER_3>As a professional storyteller, where you're like trying to hold like empathy and knowledge of market functionality at the same time.

00:30:16.966 --> 00:30:21.746

<v SPEAKER_3>It feels messy, and the Radiotopia team is trying to help out.

00:30:22.166 --> 00:30:24.326

<v SPEAKER_5>I was like, who is the savvy one here?

00:30:24.586 --> 00:30:37.486

<v SPEAKER_5>Like, you know, Jess the professional or Ernesto the model, where he's very comfortable with the idea of being like clay to be molded.

00:30:39.086 --> 00:30:41.446

<v SPEAKER_3>That's managing producer Yooree Losordo.

00:30:41.926 --> 00:30:49.166

<v SPEAKER_5>And he's the one who's like jaded, maybe even and is like, no, this is the system.

00:30:50.226 --> 00:30:53.766

<v SPEAKER_3>And here's Audrey again, Radiotopia's executive producer.

00:30:54.186 --> 00:31:09.426

<v SPEAKER_6>The question that you're sort of dancing around is yes, documentaries are supposed to be impactful, but they are also entertainment and like they're being sold, right?

00:31:09.446 --> 00:31:17.546

<v SPEAKER_6>So that is often how people are selling them is as entertainment, as infotainment or whatever you want to call it.

00:31:19.846 --> 00:31:23.486

<v SPEAKER_6>And so how do you or can you do both?

00:31:23.946 --> 00:31:28.066

<v SPEAKER_3>It's a great question and no one on the call seems to have an answer.

00:31:28.886 --> 00:31:32.886

<v SPEAKER_3>The Zoom meeting screen is just a grid of silent nods.

00:31:33.666 --> 00:31:35.246

<v SPEAKER_6>Mm-hmm, it's tricky.

00:31:35.266 --> 00:31:35.326

<v SPEAKER_4>Pretty tricky.

00:31:36.706 --> 00:31:36.966

<v SPEAKER_6>Hmm.

00:31:39.666 --> 00:31:40.606

<v SPEAKER_6>Everyone's bobbing.

00:31:46.661 --> 00:31:51.501

<v SPEAKER_3>A few weeks later, and I'm still puzzling over what to do with all that tape from Ernesto.

00:31:52.461 --> 00:32:01.901

<v SPEAKER_3>It's clear to me now that within the scope of my project, my plan to let Ernesto direct his own documentary about himself was always doomed to fail.

00:32:02.601 --> 00:32:04.481

<v SPEAKER_3>Because I have a product to deliver.

00:32:05.501 --> 00:32:10.221

<v SPEAKER_3>But as I listen back to the tape, I start to hear a third story angle.

00:32:10.921 --> 00:32:15.661

<v SPEAKER_3>It's something Ernesto didn't pitch to me directly, but that he's been showing and telling me.

00:32:16.321 --> 00:32:19.741

<v SPEAKER_3>Speaking of which, do you have Venmo?

00:32:20.721 --> 00:32:22.021

<v SPEAKER_3>Because I owe you some money.

00:32:22.301 --> 00:32:24.581

<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I could really use some money right now too.

00:32:25.681 --> 00:32:30.061

<v SPEAKER_3>For years now, one of Ernesto's main jobs has been being a model.

00:32:30.781 --> 00:32:33.801

<v SPEAKER_3>Like he said, it's being a professional object.

00:32:34.561 --> 00:32:40.421

<v SPEAKER_3>And now that he's part of my project, he's essentially become a professional subject.

00:32:42.141 --> 00:32:45.021

<v SPEAKER_4>I only have 700 rents, 1200.

00:32:45.021 --> 00:32:48.061

<v SPEAKER_6>So we've spent about seven hours together.

00:32:49.821 --> 00:32:52.541

<v SPEAKER_3>Seven hours is $140.

00:32:53.381 --> 00:32:56.861

<v SPEAKER_3>And what Ernesto needs is $500 to pay rent.

00:32:58.301 --> 00:33:04.001

<v SPEAKER_3>Object or subject, the transformative power of storytelling or not.

00:33:05.541 --> 00:33:09.521

<v SPEAKER_3>This gig simply isn't paying enough to make a difference in Ernesto's life.

00:33:10.501 --> 00:33:16.501

<v SPEAKER_3>And usually this sort of professional subject opportunity doesn't pay at all.

00:33:17.161 --> 00:33:18.761

<v SPEAKER_3>Just like the modeling gigs.

00:33:19.621 --> 00:33:22.521

<v SPEAKER_4>I really appreciate if you sent me like, I don't know.

00:33:26.341 --> 00:33:28.521

<v SPEAKER_4>And that's my pride and shyness, you know.

00:33:28.541 --> 00:33:31.781

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't have it in me to say, I ain't doing it for this much.

00:33:31.801 --> 00:33:33.821

<v SPEAKER_4>Like I would do it for free, I would never ask you.

00:33:34.501 --> 00:33:40.161

<v SPEAKER_3>By necessity, Ernesto has become an expert at giving people what they want to see and hear.

00:33:40.501 --> 00:33:42.081

<v SPEAKER_4>Cash rules everything around.

00:33:42.381 --> 00:33:43.441

<v SPEAKER_4>Cream gets the money.

00:33:43.681 --> 00:33:45.321

<v SPEAKER_4>Dollar, dollar bill, y'all.

00:33:45.341 --> 00:34:09.361

<v SPEAKER_3>That pressure to tell a story that seems exceptional and not generic, it forces us to take real lives, to take Ernesto's life, and to ascribe value to how well he can narrate his most traumatic experiences, so that we can experience empathy.

00:34:11.281 --> 00:34:12.801

<v SPEAKER_3>But empathy to what end?

00:34:14.641 --> 00:34:15.861

<v SPEAKER_3>And for whose benefit?

00:34:17.541 --> 00:34:18.601

<v SPEAKER_3>Whose bottom line?

00:34:22.841 --> 00:34:27.961

<v SPEAKER_3>I could tell a thousand stories about Ernesto using all my tricks of the trade.

00:34:29.201 --> 00:34:33.381

<v SPEAKER_3>I could even have him tell the rape or the police brutality stories he offered up.

00:34:34.561 --> 00:34:39.221

<v SPEAKER_3>But the last thing I want to do is turn Ernesto's pain into your pleasure.

00:34:40.601 --> 00:34:44.461

<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm beginning to think I've designed this whole project around a flawed premise.

00:34:46.341 --> 00:34:49.521

<v SPEAKER_3>How can I make good on my commitment to Radiotopia now?

00:34:51.001 --> 00:34:54.081

<v SPEAKER_3>And how does it change how I need to work with my other three subjects?

00:34:55.161 --> 00:34:56.161

<v SPEAKER_3>I've only just started.

00:36:03.241 --> 00:36:08.761

<v SPEAKER_3>From Radiotopia Presents, this was episode 2 of Shocking Heartbreaking Transformative.

00:36:09.345 --> 00:36:17.925

<v SPEAKER_3>A series about what happens to all of us, subjects, documentarians, and audiences when stories about our lives become products.

00:36:21.205 --> 00:36:22.045

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane.

00:36:22.565 --> 00:36:25.565

<v SPEAKER_3>I wrote and produced this episode with help from a bunch of people.

00:36:26.065 --> 00:36:27.485

<v SPEAKER_3>My editor is Sara Nics.

00:36:27.865 --> 00:36:31.285

<v SPEAKER_3>The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich.

00:36:31.985 --> 00:36:34.845

<v SPEAKER_3>Radiotopia's managing producer is Yooree Losordo.

00:36:35.505 --> 00:36:38.545

<v SPEAKER_3>Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem.

00:36:38.825 --> 00:36:43.625

<v SPEAKER_3>And our music was composed by Eliza Niemi, with additional music by Michelle Macklem.

00:36:44.065 --> 00:36:48.905

<v SPEAKER_3>Mona Hassan provided production support, and our episode art is by Justin Broadbent.

00:36:49.585 --> 00:36:58.385

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks also to Kali Anderson, Jason Fox, Chioke I'Anson, Jordan Lord, Mitra Kaboli, Eleanor McDowall, and Pooja Rangan.

00:36:58.985 --> 00:37:08.185

<v SPEAKER_3>I also wanted to shout out Pooja's amazing book, Immediations, which blew my mind and informed much of the thinking behind this episode and the series as a whole.

00:37:08.605 --> 00:37:10.345

<v SPEAKER_3>I'll drop a link to the book in the show notes.

00:37:11.905 --> 00:37:16.845

<v SPEAKER_3>This reporting was also supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G.

00:37:16.865 --> 00:37:18.525

<v SPEAKER_3>Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

00:37:19.565 --> 00:37:20.345

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks for listening.

<v SPEAKER_1>You're listening to Radiotopia Presents, from PRX's Radiotopia.

00:00:08.020 --> 00:00:11.480

<v SPEAKER_1>Before we get started, there's another podcast you'll want to check out from PRX.

00:00:12.120 --> 00:00:21.560

<v SPEAKER_1>Seen on Radio has a new series that tells the story of the only successful coup d'etat in US history, in Wilmington, North Carolina, November 1898.

00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:28.920

<v SPEAKER_1>It's a story with disturbing resonance today, in our time of orchestrated attacks against democracy and the threat of political violence.

00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:33.260

<v SPEAKER_1>Look for Echoes of a Coup Season 6 of Seen on Radio.

00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:35.440

<v SPEAKER_1>Listen now wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:00:37.060 --> 00:00:37.420

<v SPEAKER_3>Hi.

00:00:37.900 --> 00:00:42.840

<v SPEAKER_3>A quick note that this show is serialized, so make sure to listen to the episodes in order.

00:00:45.140 --> 00:00:45.900

<v SPEAKER_3>It's 8 a.m.

00:00:45.900 --> 00:00:50.900

<v SPEAKER_3>on a blustery fall day in early September, and I'm waiting by the doors of a church in upper Manhattan.

00:00:51.700 --> 00:00:53.460

<v SPEAKER_3>The doors swing open and there's Judy.

00:00:54.580 --> 00:00:59.380

<v SPEAKER_3>She's a white woman in her early 70s, with shoulder-length grey, wavy hair and kind eyes.

00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:07.540

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:01:07.980 --> 00:01:09.360

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy lives in this church.

00:01:09.800 --> 00:01:14.460

<v SPEAKER_3>It doubles as a shelter, but residents have to clear out all their things at 8 a.m.

00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:14.960

<v SPEAKER_3>every day.

00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:22.160

<v SPEAKER_3>So Judy makes several trips back inside to remove seven large, reusable shopping bags, all packed to the brim.

00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:28.180

<v SPEAKER_3>Then the church doors close, and Judy uses a car window as a mirror to brush out her hair.

00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:33.460

<v SPEAKER_4>These are the little things that when you don't have, you learn to make adjustments.

00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:37.220

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy is the next documentary subject I've got lined up.

00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:42.360

<v SPEAKER_3>And since she has to be out of the shelter all day, we've planned to head over to a nearby diner to talk.

00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:44.960

<v SPEAKER_3>I offer to carry some of her bags.

00:01:50.060 --> 00:01:51.140

<v SPEAKER_5>No, no, no, I'm fine.

00:01:51.160 --> 00:01:51.460

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm fine.

00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.760

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm just amazed that they're so heavy.

00:01:54.540 --> 00:01:55.540

<v SPEAKER_5>Are yours that heavy?

00:02:01.415 --> 00:02:04.755

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy's life has been particularly chaotic since we first met.

00:02:05.175 --> 00:02:14.935

<v SPEAKER_3>So while I'm now almost finished gathering tape with Ernesto and have already scheduled preliminary interviews with my two other subjects, Judy has been difficult to coordinate with.

00:02:15.335 --> 00:02:17.255

<v SPEAKER_5>So, Judy, I have a question for you.

00:02:17.735 --> 00:02:19.995

<v SPEAKER_3>We met because I'm making this series.

00:02:20.535 --> 00:02:22.115

<v SPEAKER_5>Do you still want to do the series?

00:02:22.275 --> 00:02:24.235

<v SPEAKER_5>I know that you're dealing with a ton of stuff.

00:02:24.255 --> 00:02:30.335

<v SPEAKER_5>It's just like on my end, if you don't want to be involved, then I just need to know sooner.

00:02:30.355 --> 00:02:33.175

<v SPEAKER_7>Well, right now, I'm open-minded.

00:02:33.375 --> 00:02:40.695

<v SPEAKER_7>I'm not saying you're one way or the other, but I want to contribute to your goal.

00:02:48.315 --> 00:02:52.855

<v SPEAKER_3>Shortly after we decided to work together, a legal emergency came up in Judy's life.

00:02:53.615 --> 00:02:57.415

<v SPEAKER_3>An emergency that led her to consider pulling out of my project altogether.

00:02:58.355 --> 00:03:04.795

<v SPEAKER_3>Part of why Judy and I are meeting today is so that I can introduce her to a lawyer I know, who I think might be able to help out.

00:03:06.355 --> 00:03:13.395

<v SPEAKER_3>As we head into the meeting, I turn off my recorder, because today getting Judy's story on tape just isn't my priority.

00:03:16.915 --> 00:03:21.435

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

00:03:32.897 --> 00:03:37.097

<v SPEAKER_3>After my auditions, I book preliminary interviews with all my subjects.

00:03:37.757 --> 00:03:39.477

<v SPEAKER_3>I record with Ernesto first.

00:03:40.217 --> 00:03:46.437

<v SPEAKER_3>And soon after that, I meet up with Michael, a middle-aged black writer and rapper recently out of prison.

00:03:47.077 --> 00:03:55.557

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael is super tall, 6'6, with glasses, a close crop fade, and a slow grace to his movements that's surprising for his size.

00:03:55.577 --> 00:03:58.997

<v SPEAKER_2>I joined the gang in this park.

00:03:59.357 --> 00:04:01.077

<v SPEAKER_2>That's where I got initiated at.

00:04:01.097 --> 00:04:04.697

<v SPEAKER_2>I'm like a hood legend in this park, Bristol Park.

00:04:04.717 --> 00:04:05.917

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, everybody knows me.

00:04:06.537 --> 00:04:11.717

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael and I decide to have our first meeting in his childhood neighborhood of Brownsville in Brooklyn.

00:04:12.157 --> 00:04:15.597

<v SPEAKER_3>Because, he says, this is where his story began.

00:04:15.617 --> 00:04:18.157

<v SPEAKER_2>It's just a typical hood story.

00:04:18.757 --> 00:04:23.177

<v SPEAKER_2>Like, a person comes from a bad neighborhood and bad things happen.

00:04:24.077 --> 00:04:26.357

<v SPEAKER_2>But a lot of the stories end tragically too.

00:04:26.717 --> 00:04:29.957

<v SPEAKER_2>And my story didn't end tragically, so now scars the limit for me.

00:04:31.397 --> 00:04:35.617

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael is a writer and has a lot of ideas about what makes a good story.

00:04:36.137 --> 00:04:42.077

<v SPEAKER_3>He recently completed a program that teaches formerly incarcerated people about public speaking.

00:04:42.737 --> 00:04:48.357

<v SPEAKER_3>He shares some structural suggestions that he was taught that might apply to our documentary about him.

00:04:48.377 --> 00:05:00.477

<v SPEAKER_2>They wanted us to keep it short and they wanted to tell us how to start it in the beginning, how to do the middle part, you know, to keep the people in suspense so that way people will be interested in your story.

00:05:03.197 --> 00:05:10.857

<v SPEAKER_3>A week after meeting Michael, I sit down with Jess, a Hawaiian punk musician in their early 20s who recently learned they're adopted.

00:05:11.617 --> 00:05:18.737

<v SPEAKER_3>Heavily tattooed with a bunch of facial piercings, Jess' aesthetic is tough, but underneath they're obviously a softie.

00:05:19.217 --> 00:05:25.437

<v SPEAKER_6>Honestly, I feel like my headspace has been pretty awful these past couple of days.

00:05:25.457 --> 00:05:29.597

<v SPEAKER_6>I feel like sometimes talking helps me a lot.

00:05:29.997 --> 00:05:40.517

<v SPEAKER_3>In our first interview, Jess is quick to open up with some of the emotional upheaval of being newly connected to their bio family, who until recently they didn't even know existed.

00:05:40.537 --> 00:05:47.417

<v SPEAKER_6>I've been wanting siblings for so long and to find out I have like exactly what I wanted, like a younger one and an older one.

00:05:48.137 --> 00:05:53.917

<v SPEAKER_6>I felt very pressured to like have this perfect relationship with them because like it's everything I wanted.

00:05:53.937 --> 00:05:54.837

<v SPEAKER_6>I can't fuck it up.

00:05:55.997 --> 00:06:03.357

<v SPEAKER_3>Like with Ernesto, in these first interviews, I'm just trying to get to know Michael and Jess, to narrow in on what their stories might be.

00:06:04.217 --> 00:06:07.697

<v SPEAKER_3>I wrap up our conversations and tell them I'll circle back soon.

00:06:10.957 --> 00:06:15.937

<v SPEAKER_3>I reach out to Judy a few different times to try to book an interview, but I don't hear back.

00:06:16.777 --> 00:06:23.777

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want to give up on her though, because out of everyone I met, Judy is the person I've been most excited to talk to.

00:06:25.837 --> 00:06:30.737

<v SPEAKER_3>When Judy showed up to her audition, I started with my standard spiel about my project.

00:06:31.117 --> 00:06:43.217

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm interested in talking to people who have interesting life experience that they want to share for some reason, and who are interested in having conversations about what it means to share that experience.

00:06:44.297 --> 00:06:45.317

<v SPEAKER_4>Why are you laughing?

00:06:45.337 --> 00:06:46.437

<v SPEAKER_4>That's kind of loaded.

00:06:46.777 --> 00:06:54.777

<v SPEAKER_3>I'd done this spiel 30 times by this point, but Judy was the only person to press me about the media criticism portion of my project.

00:06:54.897 --> 00:06:58.877

<v SPEAKER_4>The media has tremendous impact on people's lives.

00:06:59.477 --> 00:07:03.797

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want to stray from myself because you want my story.

00:07:03.817 --> 00:07:04.697

<v SPEAKER_3>No, this is part of it.

00:07:05.297 --> 00:07:08.877

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm just citing an example of something that happened a couple of days ago.

00:07:09.817 --> 00:07:11.797

<v SPEAKER_4>There was a man who…

00:07:11.857 --> 00:07:15.097

<v SPEAKER_3>She told me about an article she'd read that week in the New York Post.

00:07:15.417 --> 00:07:19.497

<v SPEAKER_3>It was about an unhoused man who had built a shelter for himself on the Manhattan Bridge.

00:07:20.217 --> 00:07:26.217

<v SPEAKER_3>She said it was this story that alerted the city of the man's presence, which then prompted a violent eviction.

00:07:26.757 --> 00:07:36.637

<v SPEAKER_4>Sure, they were trying to get readers to read about the unusual aspect of this man's life, but did they think this thing through?

00:07:37.157 --> 00:07:40.397

<v SPEAKER_4>I thought it was reckless and irresponsible.

00:07:40.857 --> 00:07:44.217

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy's understanding of the stakes of my project was exciting to me.

00:07:44.617 --> 00:07:46.377

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy herself was exciting to me.

00:07:46.937 --> 00:07:48.437

<v SPEAKER_3>I liked her outspokenness.

00:07:48.597 --> 00:07:53.237

<v SPEAKER_4>I actually wanted to contact the reporter and confront him on this.

00:07:53.917 --> 00:07:55.117

<v SPEAKER_3>Our shared interests.

00:07:55.397 --> 00:08:01.037

<v SPEAKER_4>I was always interested in the arts and I majored in art and art history.

00:08:01.057 --> 00:08:02.037

<v SPEAKER_5>Me too.

00:08:02.477 --> 00:08:06.317

<v SPEAKER_3>On some level, it comforted me that we had a shared class background.

00:08:06.837 --> 00:08:12.957

<v SPEAKER_4>I had the blessing of growing up with privilege.

00:08:13.737 --> 00:08:16.077

<v SPEAKER_3>And it seemed like the recognition was mutual.

00:08:16.137 --> 00:08:17.057

<v SPEAKER_5>We're going to get along.

00:08:18.597 --> 00:08:18.897

<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah.

00:08:25.979 --> 00:08:32.499

<v SPEAKER_3>When Judy told me about her husband, Richard, and how she ended up living in a shelter, my heart especially went out to her.

00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.059

<v SPEAKER_4>When Richard got sick, he couldn't work.

00:08:36.999 --> 00:08:38.599

<v SPEAKER_4>We fell behind in the rent.

00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.679

<v SPEAKER_4>We were taken to housing court for non-payment.

00:08:43.819 --> 00:08:54.419

<v SPEAKER_4>And during the litigation process in the housing court, Richard died, leaving me in a state of complete panic.

00:08:54.979 --> 00:09:02.779

<v SPEAKER_3>And unlike Ernesto, or Michael or Jess for that matter, Judy seemed to know exactly what she wanted out of participating in this series.

00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:06.439

<v SPEAKER_5>Understandably, I think you have sort of distrust of the media.

00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:08.899

<v SPEAKER_3>But, you know, I'm part of the media.

00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:11.499

<v SPEAKER_5>Is there anything you want to get clear with me?

00:09:11.859 --> 00:09:13.019

<v SPEAKER_4>I'll tell you the truth.

00:09:13.199 --> 00:09:25.659

<v SPEAKER_4>What my aspiration is for my involvement in this project of yours, my goal is to get my life back on track, to become normal again, not to be considered unstably housed or homeless.

00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:35.479

<v SPEAKER_4>I would like to contribute something to society, to share with the audience the fact that homelessness, it can happen to anybody.

00:09:35.499 --> 00:09:40.899

<v SPEAKER_4>And maybe somebody listening might give me a chance.

00:09:42.339 --> 00:09:42.919

<v SPEAKER_4>Never know.

00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.059

<v SPEAKER_3>When I cast Judy, she seemed excited, grateful even.

00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.459

<v SPEAKER_3>But I felt like the lucky one.

00:09:52.859 --> 00:09:58.939

<v SPEAKER_3>Her big personality and critical thinking, they seemed like just the right ingredients for my documentary project.

00:10:00.019 --> 00:10:02.819

<v SPEAKER_3>But getting in touch with her was another story.

00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.139

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm sorry, the person you were trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet.

00:10:07.459 --> 00:10:09.039

<v SPEAKER_3>Please try your call again later.

00:10:09.239 --> 00:10:09.799

<v SPEAKER_3>Goodbye.

00:10:10.359 --> 00:10:12.419

<v SPEAKER_3>Her phone would ring but never connect.

00:10:13.099 --> 00:10:16.599

<v SPEAKER_3>For weeks, the only texts I got from her said, I'll call you back.

00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:18.279

<v SPEAKER_3>But I wouldn't get a call.

00:10:19.459 --> 00:10:24.499

<v SPEAKER_3>And then I got this massive, frantic novel of a text message, mostly in all caps.

00:10:25.079 --> 00:10:30.939

<v SPEAKER_3>It was about an impending eviction, a court case, an evil landlord and a negligent lawyer.

00:10:33.239 --> 00:10:35.599

<v SPEAKER_3>It was actually pretty hard to understand.

00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:37.719

<v SPEAKER_3>So I followed up with a phone call.

00:10:43.359 --> 00:10:45.479

<v SPEAKER_7>You got the chance to look at it.

00:10:45.499 --> 00:10:45.859

<v SPEAKER_3>I did.

00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:46.719

<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, I did.

00:10:47.099 --> 00:10:54.119

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy explained to me that a court case about her old apartment got postponed in the COVID moratorium on evictions.

00:10:54.859 --> 00:11:02.039

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy might be able to move back into her old apartment if she can cover the unpaid rent from the past three years.

00:11:02.939 --> 00:11:08.719

<v SPEAKER_4>The landlord's attorney calculated that the rental rebate is $58,000.

00:11:12.259 --> 00:11:21.919

<v SPEAKER_3>She tells me that a big part of why she needs to get back into that specific apartment is because her landlord has formally agreed to accept something called a rental assistance voucher.

00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:27.439

<v SPEAKER_3>Theoretically, this voucher could pay Judy's rent in her apartment for the rest of her life.

00:11:28.479 --> 00:11:33.339

<v SPEAKER_3>From the sounds of it, Judy has six weeks to raise almost $60,000.

00:11:34.199 --> 00:11:39.539

<v SPEAKER_3>But if she pulls it off, it's possible she'll be able to move back into her old apartment.

00:11:43.539 --> 00:11:45.919

<v SPEAKER_3>Some high stakes for my Judy documentary.

00:11:46.239 --> 00:11:47.559

<v SPEAKER_4>It's a very dirty business.

00:11:48.219 --> 00:11:52.939

<v SPEAKER_5>This is like a classic villainization of homelessness, which is really a state created problem.

00:11:53.199 --> 00:11:54.439

<v SPEAKER_4>You're so correct.

00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:55.619

<v SPEAKER_4>You're so correct.

00:11:57.079 --> 00:11:58.359

<v SPEAKER_3>There's just one hitch.

00:11:58.959 --> 00:12:02.439

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know anything about housing law or evictions or rent vouchers.

00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:05.279

<v SPEAKER_3>I reach out to my lawyer friend Alex.

00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:08.319

<v SPEAKER_4>Hello.

00:12:08.659 --> 00:12:11.319

<v SPEAKER_3>She works on policy to decriminalize homelessness.

00:12:11.779 --> 00:12:12.099

<v SPEAKER_5>Yes.

00:12:12.119 --> 00:12:12.759

<v SPEAKER_5>So Judy.

00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:14.179

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah.

00:12:14.539 --> 00:12:18.379

<v SPEAKER_5>Like I know that Judy sent you that text message, but have you heard anything else from her?

00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.059

<v SPEAKER_3>I tell Alex about Judy's situation and she has a lot of questions.

00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:27.619

<v SPEAKER_3>Like why is Judy even living in a shelter when her eviction case is still active?

00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:32.479

<v SPEAKER_3>Alex asks me to ask Judy if she'd like Alex to look into her case.

00:12:33.299 --> 00:12:43.279

<v SPEAKER_3>Alex thinks she might be able to offer some support to Judy's attorney as well as to offer Judy some clarity about the actions her attorney has or hasn't been taking.

00:12:43.959 --> 00:12:47.419

<v SPEAKER_3>I try to follow up with Judy about scheduling a time to talk in person.

00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:51.419

<v SPEAKER_3>I figure when we finally meet, I can tell her about Alex's offer.

00:12:52.099 --> 00:12:52.639

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm sorry.

00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:56.059

<v SPEAKER_3>The person you are trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet.

00:12:56.339 --> 00:12:58.599

<v SPEAKER_3>But another week of missed calls goes by.

00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:12.919

<v SPEAKER_3>And when Judy finally writes back, she says that because of how vulnerable she is right now, she can't commit to anything that isn't directly contributing to solving her legal problems, including being part of my documentary.

00:13:14.179 --> 00:13:15.159

<v SPEAKER_3>My heart sinks.

00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:17.239

<v SPEAKER_3>I feel conflicted.

00:13:17.819 --> 00:13:22.079

<v SPEAKER_3>I understand where she's coming from, and I don't want to put anything more on her plate.

00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:32.199

<v SPEAKER_3>At the same time, I think her situation could be a valuable setup to meaningfully explore how people can fall through the holes in the social safety net and wind up unhoused.

00:13:32.859 --> 00:13:40.159

<v SPEAKER_3>Plus, for more than a month now, I've been banking on working with Judy on this series, and I don't have a backup plan.

00:13:42.259 --> 00:13:44.499

<v SPEAKER_3>Then I read Judy's text again.

00:13:45.359 --> 00:13:50.979

<v SPEAKER_3>I can't commit to anything that isn't directly contributing to solving my legal problems.

00:13:53.079 --> 00:13:55.879

<v SPEAKER_3>In a sense, it's not actually a no.

00:13:56.479 --> 00:13:58.319

<v SPEAKER_3>Is it an invitation?

00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:00.939

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe even a challenge?

00:14:01.959 --> 00:14:06.939

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe this is the opportunity I've been looking for, for a fair documentary exchange.

00:14:07.239 --> 00:14:11.079

<v SPEAKER_4>Maybe somebody listening might give me a chance.

00:14:11.099 --> 00:14:12.659

<v SPEAKER_4>I never know.

00:14:13.599 --> 00:14:19.819

<v SPEAKER_3>I learned working with Ernesto that letting a documentary subject bleed comes with all kinds of challenges.

00:14:20.899 --> 00:14:22.559

<v SPEAKER_3>But this is something different.

00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:35.379

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy seems to be proposing that she'll let me document her, and in exchange, I'll use my skills, platform and privilege to help her improve her circumstances.

00:14:37.359 --> 00:14:43.099

<v SPEAKER_3>In some ways, this setup sounds more fair and more transparent than the usual documentary arrangement.

00:14:44.059 --> 00:14:50.339

<v SPEAKER_3>The give and take is much clearer and more direct than some vague notion of the power and promise of storytelling.

00:14:52.699 --> 00:14:57.999

<v SPEAKER_3>I text Judy back, and I tell her about my friend Alex, how I think Alex might be able to help.

00:14:58.619 --> 00:15:00.459

<v SPEAKER_3>I ask Judy if we can all meet up.

00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:03.219

<v SPEAKER_3>For once, Judy texts back within seconds.

00:15:03.779 --> 00:15:05.459

<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, thank you, she writes.

00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:08.419

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm a strong believer in win-win situations.

00:15:18.794 --> 00:15:25.134

<v SPEAKER_3>And that's how I find myself carrying Judy's shockingly heavy bags to a legal meeting on a windy September morning.

00:15:25.734 --> 00:15:30.794

<v SPEAKER_3>Hold up in a bustling diner, Alex patiently explained what she's learned from Judy's attorney.

00:15:31.494 --> 00:15:34.054

<v SPEAKER_3>I didn't record this meeting, but I'm going to give you a recap.

00:15:34.654 --> 00:15:39.974

<v SPEAKER_3>So, we start by talking about that rental assistance voucher that Judy already told me about.

00:15:40.514 --> 00:15:44.874

<v SPEAKER_3>The one that could theoretically pay her future rent in her old apartment.

00:15:45.454 --> 00:15:55.394

<v SPEAKER_3>Getting set up for that voucher is worth doing as soon as possible, because it's something concrete that Judy's attorney can point to as a good argument for postponing her upcoming eviction.

00:15:56.234 --> 00:15:59.674

<v SPEAKER_3>And according to Alex, this should be pretty straightforward.

00:16:00.114 --> 00:16:08.554

<v SPEAKER_3>The biggest hurdle is that Judy will have to move out of the church-run shelter where she's been living for years now and into a different city-run shelter.

00:16:08.574 --> 00:16:13.114

<v SPEAKER_3>At first, Judy isn't interested in moving.

00:16:13.754 --> 00:16:21.754

<v SPEAKER_3>She doubts that any new shelter will be better than her current situation or even that moving will actually get her closer to securing that voucher.

00:16:22.494 --> 00:16:24.194

<v SPEAKER_3>But Alex is one step ahead.

00:16:24.454 --> 00:16:26.774

<v SPEAKER_3>She calls up Judy's caseworker for backup.

00:16:27.734 --> 00:16:39.614

<v SPEAKER_3>Not only does he confirm what Alex has said, but he also discovers in real time that through some bureaucratic loophole, Judy's voucher application has already gone through and been approved early.

00:16:40.374 --> 00:16:48.734

<v SPEAKER_3>She will still have to move shelters in order to ensure that the application stays active, but otherwise, this voucher is in the bag.

00:16:49.514 --> 00:16:59.014

<v SPEAKER_3>The caseworker also lets us know that because Judy is a senior, she'll have priority getting a single room at the new shelter and likely will be able to move within the week.

00:16:59.734 --> 00:17:08.954

<v SPEAKER_3>Two coffee refills later, Judy has done a 180 on the idea of changing shelters, and the elusive rent voucher is finally within reach.

00:17:11.494 --> 00:17:16.194

<v SPEAKER_4>And this opens up a whole universe to me of options.

00:17:16.794 --> 00:17:20.894

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy and I are now sitting on a bench in a little parquet between two wide streets.

00:17:21.474 --> 00:17:23.054

<v SPEAKER_3>She is absolutely elated.

00:17:23.114 --> 00:17:40.834

<v SPEAKER_4>On this very day, the deadline for me to hand over $60,000 to my landlord in Brooklyn, which I had sleepless nights over, turned out that I was awarded the voucher.

00:17:41.994 --> 00:17:43.634

<v SPEAKER_3>But this isn't quite right.

00:17:44.134 --> 00:17:49.734

<v SPEAKER_3>The truth is that her decision to move only ensures that she qualifies for the voucher.

00:17:50.214 --> 00:17:53.174

<v SPEAKER_3>It won't actually kick in until the rent debt has been paid.

00:17:53.734 --> 00:17:56.414

<v SPEAKER_3>And the apartment will have to pass a safety inspection.

00:17:57.274 --> 00:17:59.794

<v SPEAKER_3>But it's definitely a step in the right direction.

00:17:59.814 --> 00:18:02.314

<v SPEAKER_3>And for the moment, the future looks brighter.

00:18:03.994 --> 00:18:05.354

<v SPEAKER_5>So, Judy, what do you want to do now?

00:18:05.374 --> 00:18:06.674

<v SPEAKER_4>We're going to celebrate.

00:18:06.694 --> 00:18:09.174

<v SPEAKER_4>This is a major, major event.

00:18:09.674 --> 00:18:13.354

<v SPEAKER_4>And just enjoy the fact that we're alive.

00:18:13.954 --> 00:18:15.954

<v SPEAKER_3>It's amazing to see Judy like this.

00:18:16.394 --> 00:18:22.174

<v SPEAKER_3>And to know that just by connecting her with the right resource, I was a small part of helping her get here.

00:18:23.274 --> 00:18:24.454

<v SPEAKER_3>And the cherry on top.

00:18:24.814 --> 00:18:26.954

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy is back on board with the documentary.

00:18:27.734 --> 00:18:34.994

<v SPEAKER_4>The questions that you asked me and I responded to, will that material be helpful to your project?

00:18:35.014 --> 00:18:40.814

<v SPEAKER_3>What we can do is try to tell the story of someone like you in this situation who's trying to get housing.

00:18:41.314 --> 00:18:41.754

<v SPEAKER_4>Sure.

00:18:41.874 --> 00:18:46.394

<v SPEAKER_3>Try to make this process a little bit more transparent for someone who likes you listening.

00:18:46.994 --> 00:19:00.814

<v SPEAKER_3>The possibility of supporting Judy and gathering tape for my series Along the Way, tape that will surely illuminate the complex nature of homelessness as per Judy's goals, it somehow feels clear, feels right.

00:19:01.714 --> 00:19:04.114

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm a little elated too, to be honest.

00:19:04.674 --> 00:19:08.874

<v SPEAKER_3>And then, Judy rifles in her bag and pulls out a packaged brownie.

00:19:09.394 --> 00:19:11.054

<v SPEAKER_4>I want you to have this sweetheart.

00:19:11.074 --> 00:19:12.694

<v SPEAKER_7>This is a delicious treat.

00:19:12.714 --> 00:19:16.274

<v SPEAKER_5>Oh it looks so good but Judy I insist.

00:19:16.294 --> 00:19:16.834

<v SPEAKER_3>No no.

00:19:17.694 --> 00:19:18.434

<v SPEAKER_3>Can we share it?

00:19:18.734 --> 00:19:19.814

<v SPEAKER_7>You're my honoured guest.

00:19:19.894 --> 00:19:21.054

<v SPEAKER_3>This is a big brownie.

00:19:21.534 --> 00:19:22.614

<v SPEAKER_5>There's enough for both of us.

00:19:22.894 --> 00:19:25.034

<v SPEAKER_4>So you'll eat it on two separate occasions.

00:19:25.174 --> 00:19:25.934

<v SPEAKER_5>Oh come on.

00:19:25.954 --> 00:19:26.654

<v SPEAKER_4>Yes sweetheart.

00:19:26.674 --> 00:19:27.794

<v SPEAKER_4>Put everything in the bag.

00:19:28.634 --> 00:19:30.194

<v SPEAKER_5>I really don't want to take this from you.

00:19:30.474 --> 00:19:33.194

<v SPEAKER_4>I would feel terrible if you went away and you didn't take it.

00:19:33.414 --> 00:19:42.834

<v SPEAKER_3>Oh but actually Judy, remember, I don't know if you know this but when we talked originally about this documentary I have a budget to pay you for any time you spend with me.

00:19:43.494 --> 00:19:45.134

<v SPEAKER_5>So I actually owe you $40.

00:19:45.394 --> 00:19:45.774

<v SPEAKER_4>What?

00:19:45.914 --> 00:19:46.254

<v SPEAKER_5>Yes.

00:19:47.054 --> 00:19:47.974

<v SPEAKER_5>$20 an hour.

00:19:51.194 --> 00:19:53.414

<v SPEAKER_4>It's my privilege to spend time with you.

00:19:53.414 --> 00:19:54.054

<v SPEAKER_4>My goodness.

00:19:54.414 --> 00:19:56.394

<v SPEAKER_3>So I'll take this as long as you take that.

00:19:58.314 --> 00:20:00.034

<v SPEAKER_3>Win-win situation.

00:20:10.122 --> 00:20:13.822

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy and I agree to keep in touch about our respective projects.

00:20:20.703 --> 00:20:24.203

<v SPEAKER_5>Judy, would you mind if I try recording some of this meeting for the podcast?

00:20:28.303 --> 00:20:33.903

<v SPEAKER_3>It's late September now, and Judy and I are meeting near the city-run shelter she's just moved into.

00:20:34.823 --> 00:20:37.583

<v SPEAKER_3>The new shelter is a big step up from the old one.

00:20:38.043 --> 00:20:42.543

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm disappointed to hear that it's not quite the single room she was promised.

00:20:43.203 --> 00:20:46.543

<v SPEAKER_3>The walls are more like cubicle dividers, so there's no privacy.

00:20:47.423 --> 00:20:51.523

<v SPEAKER_3>It's loud and crowded, and police cars are always parked outside.

00:20:51.823 --> 00:20:59.803

<v SPEAKER_3>But for the first time in years, Judy doesn't have to be outside all day, rain or shine, carrying heavy bags of stuff around.

00:20:59.823 --> 00:21:10.603

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, Jess, I reflect back on this whole experience, and I think to myself, I lived through that during the whole duration of the pandemic.

00:21:10.623 --> 00:21:11.663

<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, I don't know how you...

00:21:12.043 --> 00:21:19.283

<v SPEAKER_4>When there was nowhere to go, there were signs throughout the whole city that said, stay home, stay safe.

00:21:19.423 --> 00:21:21.943

<v SPEAKER_4>There was an assumption that everybody had a home.

00:21:22.623 --> 00:21:26.163

<v SPEAKER_4>That's something that's interesting, journalistically speaking.

00:21:26.403 --> 00:21:27.083

<v SPEAKER_4>Oh, totally.

00:21:27.823 --> 00:21:32.723

<v SPEAKER_3>And Judy seems overall energized by the change, which makes me feel energized too.

00:21:36.603 --> 00:21:40.363

<v SPEAKER_3>But there's still so much to be done before we can get the voucher activated.

00:21:41.003 --> 00:21:47.403

<v SPEAKER_3>We've got to raise close to $60,000 and make sure the apartment will pass a health and safety inspection.

00:21:47.843 --> 00:21:49.863

<v SPEAKER_3>And we only have a few months.

00:21:50.603 --> 00:21:52.643

<v SPEAKER_3>But Alex and I have made a plan.

00:21:53.143 --> 00:22:01.263

<v SPEAKER_3>She is going to collaborate with Judy's attorney on legal strategy and fundraising, and I'm going to work with Judy on getting her apartment ready for inspection.

00:22:02.403 --> 00:22:08.963

<v SPEAKER_3>During our meeting with Alex, Judy clarified why she's currently homeless, even though she was never actually evicted.

00:22:09.723 --> 00:22:19.143

<v SPEAKER_3>When her husband Richard was going through cancer treatment, the couple was forced to move into a hotel, because in Richard's state, he could no longer access their third floor home.

00:22:19.863 --> 00:22:28.683

<v SPEAKER_3>To save money, the couple got rid of two storage units, and dumped all their contents into the apartment, which by that point they weren't using anyhow.

00:22:29.223 --> 00:22:32.323

<v SPEAKER_3>So now the place is too full of stuff to live in.

00:22:33.063 --> 00:22:36.443

<v SPEAKER_3>And Judy's worried about how hard it will be to clear everything out.

00:22:37.203 --> 00:22:43.283

<v SPEAKER_5>Do you think that we could get into the apartment and just spend two days and go through the stuff?

00:22:43.523 --> 00:22:44.343

<v SPEAKER_4>There's no room.

00:22:44.403 --> 00:22:46.183

<v SPEAKER_4>I put everything in the front.

00:22:46.503 --> 00:22:47.683

<v SPEAKER_4>The place is packed.

00:22:48.263 --> 00:22:51.123

<v SPEAKER_5>We can open the door and take out the stuff by the door.

00:22:51.143 --> 00:22:52.323

<v SPEAKER_5>We can do it bit by bit.

00:22:52.623 --> 00:22:53.083

<v SPEAKER_5>I don't know.

00:22:53.223 --> 00:22:55.763

<v SPEAKER_4>There's no order whatsoever.

00:22:56.283 --> 00:22:56.883

<v SPEAKER_4>No order.

00:22:57.123 --> 00:23:03.363

<v SPEAKER_4>And it will take literally the longest period of time for me to sort things out.

00:23:03.783 --> 00:23:06.883

<v SPEAKER_3>But we don't have the longest period of time before the eviction.

00:23:07.083 --> 00:23:10.243

<v SPEAKER_5>So right now you have two weeks.

00:23:10.783 --> 00:23:12.143

<v SPEAKER_3>I know that's not enough time.

00:23:12.163 --> 00:23:13.583

<v SPEAKER_7>Of course it's not enough time.

00:23:14.203 --> 00:23:15.443

<v SPEAKER_5>But it's not no time.

00:23:15.463 --> 00:23:19.563

<v SPEAKER_4>We have to figure out how to pay for it or who's going to move this stuff.

00:23:20.023 --> 00:23:25.183

<v SPEAKER_3>Like any good producer, for every problem Judy raises, I have a solution.

00:23:25.203 --> 00:23:27.623

<v SPEAKER_3>Like we could go today.

00:23:27.763 --> 00:23:28.843

<v SPEAKER_5>You know, we could start.

00:23:29.263 --> 00:23:30.483

<v SPEAKER_4>It's not that simple.

00:23:30.863 --> 00:23:36.023

<v SPEAKER_4>Things are just piled up, one on top of the other, with no, with total disorder.

00:23:36.203 --> 00:23:39.983

<v SPEAKER_5>I happen to be extremely good at making order out of disorder.

00:23:42.323 --> 00:23:46.903

<v SPEAKER_3>In the weeks that follow, we have a lot of meetings in a lot of different coffee shops.

00:23:47.283 --> 00:23:52.103

<v SPEAKER_5>Do you want to talk about sort of the strategy to get some of the most precious things or?

00:23:52.443 --> 00:24:02.483

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I still believe that the best use of our time together is getting Judy's apartment in order and recovering her essential possessions for safekeeping.

00:24:03.103 --> 00:24:06.823

<v SPEAKER_3>But Judy wants to do more research about her rights around the eviction.

00:24:07.563 --> 00:24:08.623

<v SPEAKER_4>Let me ask you something.

00:24:08.643 --> 00:24:09.863

<v SPEAKER_4>There is a phone number.

00:24:09.903 --> 00:24:14.863

<v SPEAKER_4>It's called New York City Court Answers or things like that.

00:24:14.883 --> 00:24:18.703

<v SPEAKER_4>Can we look that up and see if somebody answers the phone?

00:24:19.023 --> 00:24:23.203

<v SPEAKER_3>We wait on hold, get passed between departments for 30 minutes or so.

00:24:23.343 --> 00:24:24.983

<v SPEAKER_7>Good afternoon, Housing Court Answer.

00:24:27.163 --> 00:24:28.263

<v SPEAKER_4>My name is Judy.

00:24:30.123 --> 00:24:30.883

<v SPEAKER_3>It's a dead end.

00:24:33.043 --> 00:24:35.223

<v SPEAKER_3>I take it as an opportunity to refocus.

00:24:35.863 --> 00:24:37.203

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy, not so much.

00:24:38.023 --> 00:24:49.963

<v SPEAKER_4>I'd like to brainstorm with you ideas we would present to the Housing Court, to judge anything we can do to outline arguments, I think would help them.

00:24:51.123 --> 00:24:51.463

<v SPEAKER_5>Sure.

00:24:51.863 --> 00:24:53.423

<v SPEAKER_5>I mean, I'm happy to do that.

00:24:53.983 --> 00:25:00.983

<v SPEAKER_3>And sometimes Judy's plans seem a little unrealistic, particularly when it comes to the back rent she owes.

00:25:01.463 --> 00:25:04.703

<v SPEAKER_4>Make the amount, instead of 60, make it like 20.

00:25:05.543 --> 00:25:09.943

<v SPEAKER_4>And let him allow me to stay there for a few months, like four or five months.

00:25:10.483 --> 00:25:13.103

<v SPEAKER_4>And then it'll be a win-win situation.

00:25:14.763 --> 00:25:18.883

<v SPEAKER_3>This is not lining up with the strategic plan I made with Alex.

00:25:19.723 --> 00:25:24.263

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe Judy just needs more time to steel herself for some really big changes.

00:25:25.363 --> 00:25:30.023

<v SPEAKER_3>At the same time, there are other parts of this series I'm supposed to be working on.

00:25:30.423 --> 00:25:35.663

<v SPEAKER_6>Hey Jess, I would love to like do a follow up interview whenever you're free and have the time to.

00:25:36.343 --> 00:25:36.923

<v SPEAKER_6>And yeah.

00:25:38.023 --> 00:25:41.383

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael and Jess are reaching out every so often about our next interviews.

00:25:46.123 --> 00:25:48.203

<v SPEAKER_3>In October, I slow pedaled them.

00:25:48.823 --> 00:25:55.063

<v SPEAKER_3>I explained that I'm working with a small team, that things with the project are hectic and I'm still getting my ducks in a row.

00:25:55.543 --> 00:25:56.603

<v SPEAKER_3>And it's true.

00:25:57.083 --> 00:26:00.383

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm wrapping up recording with Ernesto, wrestling with his tape.

00:26:00.803 --> 00:26:05.383

<v SPEAKER_3>But my work shadowing and researching for Judy takes up the brunt of my time.

00:26:05.963 --> 00:26:09.743

<v SPEAKER_3>And by November, things are still on the back burner with Michael and Jess.

00:26:10.363 --> 00:26:12.863

<v SPEAKER_3>And I've legitimately started feeling flaky.

00:26:13.703 --> 00:26:16.723

<v SPEAKER_3>I haven't circled back as I promised months ago.

00:26:17.403 --> 00:26:28.063

<v SPEAKER_3>And although I've requested that they stay tuned, the reality is that between Ernesto and the deep Judy rabbit hole I've continued to tumble down, I just don't have a lot of time.

00:26:28.083 --> 00:26:34.143

<v SPEAKER_3>In November, Judy and I meet again, this time at a pizza shop.

00:26:34.763 --> 00:26:39.803

<v SPEAKER_3>For now, Judy's attorney has managed to get another short extension of her eviction.

00:26:40.523 --> 00:26:48.483

<v SPEAKER_3>Between Kafkaesque phone calls and brainstorming Hail Mary negotiation strategies, Judy and I are coming to care about each other.

00:27:02.783 --> 00:27:03.983

<v SPEAKER_4>Very, very valuable.

00:27:04.003 --> 00:27:05.683

<v SPEAKER_4>I want you to be with me.

00:27:06.383 --> 00:27:08.843

<v SPEAKER_3>I get to know the daily drama at the shelter.

00:27:09.103 --> 00:27:09.803

<v SPEAKER_4>Oh, yeah.

00:27:09.863 --> 00:27:11.083

<v SPEAKER_1>Somebody's in the bathroom.

00:27:11.143 --> 00:27:12.303

<v SPEAKER_1>Yeah, I'm in the bathroom.

00:27:12.323 --> 00:27:14.063

<v SPEAKER_4>That's what it's for.

00:27:14.143 --> 00:27:15.283

<v SPEAKER_3>About her late husband.

00:27:16.063 --> 00:27:21.223

<v SPEAKER_4>I will declare this, that Richard is and was my soulmate.

00:27:21.823 --> 00:27:22.903

<v SPEAKER_3>She begins to open up.

00:27:23.343 --> 00:27:24.883

<v SPEAKER_4>I've already lost my husband.

00:27:25.083 --> 00:27:29.603

<v SPEAKER_4>So, you know, tangible things give me some comfort.

00:27:29.963 --> 00:27:34.243

<v SPEAKER_3>I come to understand that this is the crux of her fear of losing the apartment.

00:27:34.683 --> 00:27:39.003

<v SPEAKER_4>I sort of mentally shut down somewhat when I get very overwhelmed.

00:27:39.663 --> 00:27:43.543

<v SPEAKER_3>Which clarifies why Judy sometimes disappears for weeks on end.

00:27:43.603 --> 00:27:47.123

<v SPEAKER_4>But I know that, you know, shutting down is not where it's at.

00:27:48.363 --> 00:27:49.203

<v SPEAKER_5>I mean, that makes sense.

00:27:49.223 --> 00:27:50.603

<v SPEAKER_5>I feel like that happens to everybody.

00:27:50.843 --> 00:27:53.003

<v SPEAKER_5>And you're dealing with so much overwhelm all the time.

00:27:54.583 --> 00:28:00.563

<v SPEAKER_3>For better or worse, our relationship is not like one I've ever had with a documentary subject before.

00:28:02.103 --> 00:28:06.223

<v SPEAKER_3>And maybe that's because of how invested I've become in a certain outcome for Judy.

00:28:06.963 --> 00:28:17.263

<v SPEAKER_3>Not only because I've come to care about her, but because I've started to feel like the success of my series is now tied up with my ability to improve Judy's life circumstances.

00:28:18.163 --> 00:28:19.963

<v SPEAKER_3>Our relationship is a roller coaster.

00:28:20.403 --> 00:28:21.503

<v SPEAKER_3>Moments of tenderness.

00:28:25.603 --> 00:28:27.023

<v SPEAKER_3>And moments of transaction.

00:28:27.103 --> 00:28:29.063

<v SPEAKER_3>I need to pay you from our session today.

00:28:29.803 --> 00:28:30.123

<v SPEAKER_5>Yes.

00:28:30.303 --> 00:28:31.203

<v SPEAKER_5>That's in my budget.

00:28:31.883 --> 00:28:34.123

<v SPEAKER_3>There are supposedly urgent 3 a.m.

00:28:34.143 --> 00:28:34.803

<v SPEAKER_3>voicemails.

00:28:36.583 --> 00:28:37.603

<v SPEAKER_4>Jess, it's Judy.

00:28:39.983 --> 00:28:44.123

<v SPEAKER_4>I'd like to be able to connect with you before the morning, okay?

00:28:44.363 --> 00:28:47.943

<v SPEAKER_3>And one day in January, I get a different sort of wake up call.

00:28:48.803 --> 00:28:53.863

<v SPEAKER_6>I decided last minute to take a break and go home for a couple of months.

00:28:53.863 --> 00:28:56.083

<v SPEAKER_6>I think my mental health really needed it.

00:28:57.623 --> 00:29:04.423

<v SPEAKER_6>But yeah, just to like give you a heads up, I am back home at least till April or maybe March.

00:29:04.443 --> 00:29:05.223

<v SPEAKER_6>I'm not too sure.

00:29:05.503 --> 00:29:09.463

<v SPEAKER_3>It's a voice note from Jess, who I was last in touch with a month ago now.

00:29:10.063 --> 00:29:18.043

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm well aware that I have zero right to bat an eye about Jess's new plans to be out of state for the remainder of the production schedule.

00:29:18.803 --> 00:29:22.003

<v SPEAKER_3>But the change does mean that they are out of the series.

00:29:22.983 --> 00:29:27.003

<v SPEAKER_3>And I realize that if I don't get a move on, I might lose Michael too.

00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:41.160

<v SPEAKER_5>Thanks for coming to meet me here.

00:29:43.180 --> 00:29:47.480

<v SPEAKER_3>After months dragging my feet, I finally book a second interview with Michael.

00:29:47.840 --> 00:29:50.600

<v SPEAKER_3>All right, so interview number two.

00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:59.960

<v SPEAKER_3>This time we talk for several hours, and the conversation spans his friendships, They used to call me hat master because I used to wear a lot of different hats.

00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:00.900

<v SPEAKER_3>Family.

00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.440

<v SPEAKER_2>And my grandmother, she used to go to a lot of Black Power seminars.

00:30:04.600 --> 00:30:05.840

<v SPEAKER_3>The time he spent in prison.

00:30:06.040 --> 00:30:10.260

<v SPEAKER_2>You have to rehabilitate yourself because they're not going to really rehabilitate you.

00:30:10.540 --> 00:30:12.280

<v SPEAKER_3>More about his public speaking class.

00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.380

<v SPEAKER_2>When I do my public speaking, I'm helping other people.

00:30:15.380 --> 00:30:18.200

<v SPEAKER_2>I'm changing their life and I'm freeing myself at the same time too.

00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.800

<v SPEAKER_3>And about the book he's writing.

00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:23.760

<v SPEAKER_2>The name of the book is called Conversation is the Motivation to Change the Situation.

00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:25.300

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, it's almost finished.

00:30:25.520 --> 00:30:27.120

<v SPEAKER_2>They got like three more chapters to go.

00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:29.120

<v SPEAKER_3>It's an intimate conversation.

00:30:29.540 --> 00:30:33.400

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael is so generous, sharing his history and feelings.

00:30:33.700 --> 00:30:35.080

<v SPEAKER_5>How did this interview go for you?

00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:35.840

<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, it's a pleasure.

00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:37.980

<v SPEAKER_2>You're a very good moderator, so.

00:30:38.340 --> 00:30:39.300

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, you're welcome.

00:30:39.360 --> 00:30:40.140

<v SPEAKER_2>You're welcome, Jess.

00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:41.900

<v SPEAKER_2>It's like we knew each other for years.

00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:44.700

<v SPEAKER_2>Thank you.

00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:45.220

<v SPEAKER_2>Thank you.

00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:52.080

<v SPEAKER_3>Leaving the recording space, Michael has a bounce in his step.

00:30:52.820 --> 00:30:55.640

<v SPEAKER_3>It's been two hours of mostly him talking.

00:30:56.320 --> 00:30:58.260

<v SPEAKER_3>I am absolutely exhausted.

00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.580

<v SPEAKER_3>But the impression I get is that he was just getting started.

00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:10.440

<v SPEAKER_2>You chose me out of a lot of people and that is like special to me and I trust you, you trust me, you know.

00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:12.600

<v SPEAKER_2>We could be ourselves around each other.

00:31:12.760 --> 00:31:15.520

<v SPEAKER_2>So it's a win-win situation all around.

00:31:16.300 --> 00:31:16.980

<v SPEAKER_3>Win-win.

00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:18.780

<v SPEAKER_3>That expression again.

00:31:18.800 --> 00:31:21.960

<v SPEAKER_2>I don't want you to just think that it have to be just business.

00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:23.940

<v SPEAKER_2>It could, you know, be personal too.

00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.380

<v SPEAKER_2>You know, we could go out to eat, go to the movies, stuff like that, you know.

00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:31.920

<v SPEAKER_2>And I could get to learn some things about you just like, you know, things about me.

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:34.460

<v SPEAKER_2>I could get to know, you could talk to me about anything.

00:31:34.940 --> 00:31:39.440

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, if you ever have questions for me and things you want to talk to me about, you can ask me.

00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:40.740

<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, definitely.

00:31:40.760 --> 00:31:41.320

<v SPEAKER_2>Thank you.

00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:50.120

<v SPEAKER_3>In the week following our interview, Michael leaves me a voicemail.

00:31:50.320 --> 00:31:50.940

<v SPEAKER_2>Hi, Jess.

00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:51.780

<v SPEAKER_2>This is Michael.

00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:55.440

<v SPEAKER_2>I took the day off today, so call me back when you get a chance.

00:32:01.520 --> 00:32:04.920

<v SPEAKER_3>I take this to mean that he wants to do another interview soon.

00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:11.400

<v SPEAKER_3>In response, I shoot him a text to tell him I'll let him know when I'm ready to schedule our next meeting.

00:32:12.340 --> 00:32:15.180

<v SPEAKER_3>Then, a few days later, I hear from Michael again.

00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:22.600

<v SPEAKER_3>A text message with a photo of him looking dapper in an all-white suit with a fur collar and a fuzzy white fedora.

00:32:23.380 --> 00:32:28.840

<v SPEAKER_3>It is an amazing outfit, and I remember how much pride he takes in his clothing.

00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.480

<v SPEAKER_3>So, I heart it and carry on with my day.

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.640

<v SPEAKER_3>But then Michael starts sending more texts.

00:32:35.080 --> 00:32:36.880

<v SPEAKER_3>Like, I hope to see you soon.

00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:39.580

<v SPEAKER_3>We need to hang out one day and do something fun.

00:32:39.820 --> 00:32:41.100

<v SPEAKER_3>Let me know when you're free.

00:32:41.620 --> 00:32:43.440

<v SPEAKER_3>Or another, I miss you, Jess.

00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:50.980

<v SPEAKER_3>And then more snapshots, selfies, outfit pics, and then texts suggesting that I send him some photos of myself.

00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:53.840

<v SPEAKER_3>And now something feels really off.

00:32:54.680 --> 00:33:02.460

<v SPEAKER_3>After some deliberation, I text Michael back saying that while I love his fashion sense, sending photos of myself isn't something I'm comfortable with.

00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:04.940

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael responds immediately.

00:33:05.420 --> 00:33:09.360

<v SPEAKER_3>He says, I'm sorry, I'm just a picture friendly person, that's all.

00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:11.440

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe you thought I was flirting with you.

00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.940

<v SPEAKER_3>And if I made you feel that way, I'm sorry.

00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.060

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not that type, but I thought we were friends.

00:33:17.580 --> 00:33:20.120

<v SPEAKER_3>Even you suggested that we go skating one day.

00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.000

<v SPEAKER_3>But now I guess your point of view has changed.

00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.880

<v SPEAKER_3>So now we will just keep our relationship strictly business.

00:33:27.540 --> 00:33:31.940

<v SPEAKER_3>Also, by the way, I wasn't paid for the second interview we did together.

00:33:33.100 --> 00:33:35.160

<v SPEAKER_3>I rack my brain for the skating thing.

00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:38.460

<v SPEAKER_3>At first, I don't even remember what he's talking about.

00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.300

<v SPEAKER_3>And then I listen back through the tape from our first interview.

00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:44.660

<v SPEAKER_3>And it all comes back.

00:33:55.260 --> 00:34:00.300

<v SPEAKER_3>During our first interview, Michael had shared with me that he likes to roller skate to decompress.

00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:09.720

<v SPEAKER_3>Picturing him relaxing on the rink was so charming that while brainstorming next steps for our work together, I suggested he could show me where he skates sometime.

00:34:11.580 --> 00:34:12.780

<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, yeah, definitely.

00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:13.400

<v SPEAKER_5>Rollerblade.

00:34:13.420 --> 00:34:14.720

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, we could do that.

00:34:14.740 --> 00:34:17.360

<v SPEAKER_5>And I am really bad at rollerblading.

00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:19.160

<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, okay, I'll help you with that.

00:34:20.020 --> 00:34:22.360

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, even if I gotta hold your hand.

00:34:23.080 --> 00:34:24.060

<v SPEAKER_2>Make sure you don't fall.

00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:36.700

<v SPEAKER_3>I was musing that it could make some nice scene tape, theoretically, but it didn't occur to me that Michael might interpret it beyond the bounds of our documentary induced relationship.

00:34:42.090 --> 00:34:46.870

<v SPEAKER_3>I think back to the interviews nd phone calls I've had with Michael over the course of this project.

00:34:53.290 --> 00:34:58.590

<v SPEAKER_3>Instead of studios, I try to interview people in places where I know they're going to feel at ease.

00:34:59.050 --> 00:35:00.910

<v SPEAKER_3>I say, let's meet at your place.

00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:02.130

<v SPEAKER_3>Let's grab a bite.

00:35:15.810 --> 00:35:21.350

<v SPEAKER_3>It's not a coincidence that someone feeling at ease is the surest way to get natural tape.

00:35:23.010 --> 00:35:24.770

<v SPEAKER_3>But it's not just about the setting.

00:35:24.790 --> 00:35:27.530

<v SPEAKER_5>We can also just like turn off the recorder and just hang out for a bit.

00:35:27.550 --> 00:35:30.710

<v SPEAKER_5>I have to leave in like probably 40 minutes.

00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:37.210

<v SPEAKER_3>It's part of my job to be friendly, to be empathetic, to smile often, to laugh easily.

00:35:37.230 --> 00:35:49.030

<v SPEAKER_3>I want my subjects to be totally themselves, which is why audio producers often boast that the small size of our equipment and teams helps our subjects actually forget they're being recorded at all.

00:35:51.230 --> 00:35:54.270

<v SPEAKER_3>It's not that I'm lying about my commitment to my subjects.

00:35:54.870 --> 00:35:57.010

<v SPEAKER_3>I actually do care about all of them.

00:35:57.530 --> 00:35:59.670

<v SPEAKER_5>I don't know if there's anything I can do to support you.

00:35:59.690 --> 00:36:00.330

<v SPEAKER_3>Just hit me up.

00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:04.490

<v SPEAKER_3>You can just call me if you need something.

00:36:04.510 --> 00:36:06.510

<v SPEAKER_4>You're a tremendously special person.

00:36:06.990 --> 00:36:07.430

<v SPEAKER_4>You are.

00:36:07.450 --> 00:36:10.050

<v SPEAKER_3>I just also have an agenda.

00:36:10.330 --> 00:36:13.410

<v SPEAKER_5>I kind of want to bum a smoke from you and then I'll give you one next time I see you.

00:36:14.950 --> 00:36:15.650

<v SPEAKER_5>Is that allowed?

00:36:16.650 --> 00:36:20.430

<v SPEAKER_3>I think about the strange intimacy of a long personal interview.

00:36:20.450 --> 00:36:22.510

<v SPEAKER_5>I want to know your dreams and your fears.

00:36:22.950 --> 00:36:23.890

<v SPEAKER_5>About life or?

00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:33.590

<v SPEAKER_3>When do people talk about the minutiae of their lives and feelings except with dear friends, lovers, therapists and documentarians?

00:36:35.730 --> 00:36:36.250

<v SPEAKER_5>I'll see you.

00:36:45.031 --> 00:36:48.131

<v SPEAKER_3>I re-read Michael's last text nd call him back.

00:36:50.811 --> 00:36:51.471

<v SPEAKER_3>Hi, Michael.

00:36:53.071 --> 00:36:56.631

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, Michael has never called me by my last name before.

00:36:57.451 --> 00:36:58.131

<v SPEAKER_3>Something's up.

00:36:58.651 --> 00:37:09.011

<v SPEAKER_3>Actually, I'm feeling a bit bad because I just got your text, and I feel like I hurt your feelings or confused you or gave you mixed signals or something, and I just wanted to clarify.

00:37:10.251 --> 00:37:13.651

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I don't want you to get the wrong impression.

00:37:15.231 --> 00:37:16.111

<v SPEAKER_3>No, not at all.

00:37:16.991 --> 00:37:22.851

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I just wanted to clarify that while we work on this series, we're also collaborators in a sense.

00:37:23.391 --> 00:37:28.471

<v SPEAKER_3>So like when I suggested we go skating, for example, it was in the context of an interview.

00:37:28.931 --> 00:37:31.511

<v SPEAKER_3>And so I obviously wasn't clear and I'm really sorry.

00:37:31.531 --> 00:37:34.991

<v SPEAKER_2>I wasn't trying to hit on you or nothing like that.

00:37:35.311 --> 00:37:35.751

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:37:36.471 --> 00:37:40.491

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't been sending you mixed signals.

00:37:42.051 --> 00:37:42.731

<v SPEAKER_2>No, you have it.

00:37:42.811 --> 00:37:44.111

<v SPEAKER_2>You're definitely professional.

00:37:44.751 --> 00:37:45.831

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, definitely.

00:37:45.991 --> 00:37:46.911

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, definitely.

00:37:47.711 --> 00:37:49.691

<v SPEAKER_2>So now we cleared out.

00:37:49.711 --> 00:37:50.631

<v SPEAKER_2>Don't you feel better now?

00:37:50.991 --> 00:37:51.511

<v SPEAKER_3>I do.

00:37:51.531 --> 00:37:51.891

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:37:51.911 --> 00:37:53.171

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks for taking my call.

00:37:55.451 --> 00:37:57.231

<v SPEAKER_3>But I don't really feel better.

00:37:58.831 --> 00:38:05.031

<v SPEAKER_3>Because it strikes me that Michael is in a moment of his life where opportunities for connection have been hard to come by.

00:38:05.051 --> 00:38:12.891

<v SPEAKER_2>I don't have too many friends where I could hang out with and, you know, do things where they don't want nothing from me.

00:38:12.911 --> 00:38:17.211

<v SPEAKER_2>So, yeah, they always asking for money or asking for something.

00:38:17.231 --> 00:38:20.191

<v SPEAKER_2>So, you know, I know it was going to be like that with you.

00:38:20.271 --> 00:38:25.811

<v SPEAKER_2>So I just wanted somebody, you know, somebody new and refreshing in my life.

00:38:26.091 --> 00:38:26.831

<v SPEAKER_5>No, I get it.

00:38:27.631 --> 00:38:34.231

<v SPEAKER_3>Since getting out of prison just over a year ago, Michael has been on parole and hustling just to make ends meet.

00:38:34.771 --> 00:38:39.751

<v SPEAKER_3>Meeting me for interviews in between shifts at a slew of isolating, low-paid gigs.

00:38:40.471 --> 00:38:41.231

<v SPEAKER_5>How was work today?

00:38:42.451 --> 00:38:44.031

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I'm about to leave this job.

00:38:44.371 --> 00:38:46.211

<v SPEAKER_2>I'm about to get a job in a hospital.

00:38:49.131 --> 00:38:51.351

<v SPEAKER_5>How's the new work schedule treating you?

00:38:53.391 --> 00:38:55.591

<v SPEAKER_5>Because you were doing like almost a night shift before.

00:38:56.231 --> 00:38:56.531

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:38:56.551 --> 00:38:58.471

<v SPEAKER_2>It was only $17 an hour.

00:38:58.771 --> 00:39:01.651

<v SPEAKER_2>I always had a fear for driving, for a company or anything.

00:39:02.031 --> 00:39:05.551

<v SPEAKER_2>Even if you park it wrong, the company is going to consider you a liability.

00:39:05.831 --> 00:39:08.131

<v SPEAKER_2>And it's not really worth it for $17 either.

00:39:08.571 --> 00:39:10.951

<v SPEAKER_3>It's been taking a toll on his relationships.

00:39:11.391 --> 00:39:15.131

<v SPEAKER_2>I was just having some, you know, relationship issues with my fiancée.

00:39:15.151 --> 00:39:17.951

<v SPEAKER_2>Because of all the traumatic things we went through.

00:39:18.111 --> 00:39:18.451

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:39:18.751 --> 00:39:19.331

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:39:19.351 --> 00:39:21.431

<v SPEAKER_2>She bailed me out of jail two times before.

00:39:23.211 --> 00:39:33.951

<v SPEAKER_3>But when he tells his story, Michael gets to bask in the connection of sharing and being listened to, as well as the sense of control that comes from being the narrator of your own life.

00:39:34.591 --> 00:39:37.911

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I never had that support that I really needed.

00:39:38.871 --> 00:39:40.731

<v SPEAKER_2>That's always been my problem all my life.

00:39:41.311 --> 00:39:41.751

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:39:42.611 --> 00:39:43.071

<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:39:43.091 --> 00:39:44.071

<v SPEAKER_2>But it's all good though.

00:39:44.091 --> 00:39:47.551

<v SPEAKER_2>Things are starting to surface, so things are coming my way.

00:39:48.471 --> 00:39:48.711

<v SPEAKER_3>Yep.

00:39:49.711 --> 00:39:50.791

<v SPEAKER_2>Slowly but surely.

00:39:54.911 --> 00:39:57.751

<v SPEAKER_3>This brings me to the other reason I'm left out.

00:39:57.811 --> 00:39:58.451

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm left feeling bad.

00:39:59.291 --> 00:40:12.091

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm actually really uncertain about whether Michael's story is even a good fit for the series, because I've now realized that he, like Ernesto, has also been on an addiction recovery journey.

00:40:12.411 --> 00:40:14.211

<v SPEAKER_2>I've been clean for almost four years now.

00:40:14.271 --> 00:40:15.251

<v SPEAKER_2>I don't drink no more.

00:40:15.271 --> 00:40:16.291

<v SPEAKER_2>I don't smoke or nothing.

00:40:16.311 --> 00:40:20.731

<v SPEAKER_2>So my life completely turned around 360 degrees.

00:40:21.291 --> 00:40:25.591

<v SPEAKER_3>And like Judy, he too has been struggling with unstable housing.

00:40:26.131 --> 00:40:31.591

<v SPEAKER_2>I had to move three times in one year, but that cost me a lot of money.

00:40:31.611 --> 00:40:36.671

<v SPEAKER_2>Just like now I live in a homeless shelter, and there's a lot of negative energy in there.

00:40:36.671 --> 00:40:42.191

<v SPEAKER_3>Even though their stories are different, in such a short series, it won't work to repeat content themes.

00:40:42.491 --> 00:40:44.771

<v SPEAKER_2>You have to become a student before you can be a teacher.

00:40:45.051 --> 00:40:48.131

<v SPEAKER_2>You got to be quick to listen and slow to speak.

00:40:48.611 --> 00:40:51.751

<v SPEAKER_3>Then there's the problem of how Michael talks about his life.

00:40:52.251 --> 00:40:55.791

<v SPEAKER_3>He does this thing that is every audio producer's nightmare.

00:40:55.991 --> 00:40:58.431

<v SPEAKER_2>You need to start treating yourself instead of cheating yourself.

00:40:58.431 --> 00:41:00.811

<v SPEAKER_2>I'm living out all my dreams slowly but surely.

00:41:01.071 --> 00:41:02.891

<v SPEAKER_2>They say what goes up must come down.

00:41:03.391 --> 00:41:14.171

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael tends to bury every reflection in a torrent of inspirational cliches, which makes sense for a man who has spent a lot of time in institutionalized personal development groups.

00:41:15.511 --> 00:41:24.531

<v SPEAKER_3>No matter the reason for the tendency, it makes it harder for me to coax him to speak in specifics, which is the way I need him to tell his story.

00:41:28.231 --> 00:41:34.011

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't think I can afford to spend any more time on trying to make Michael's story work for the series.

00:41:37.731 --> 00:41:40.331

<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm getting to the end of what I can do for Judy too.

00:41:40.351 --> 00:41:47.691

<v SPEAKER_3>It seems like your priority is constantly more time and my priority is like, what can we do right away?

00:41:47.711 --> 00:41:51.051

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want to comment.

00:41:55.311 --> 00:42:01.191

<v SPEAKER_3>It's now been a year since my auditions and I'm still heavily involved in Judy's situation.

00:42:01.711 --> 00:42:11.171

<v SPEAKER_3>I've talked to lawyers, social service agencies, housing facilities, landlords and caseworkers trying to figure out how to get Judy permanently housed.

00:42:11.891 --> 00:42:16.511

<v SPEAKER_3>But we're pretty much having the same argument we were having last November.

00:42:18.191 --> 00:42:23.231

<v SPEAKER_3>By now, I've clued into a fact that I should have probably figured out a long time ago.

00:42:24.031 --> 00:42:29.571

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy's ongoing housing crisis is so much more than anything one person could take on.

00:42:30.551 --> 00:42:43.291

<v SPEAKER_3>Worse, I'm starting to think that my deal with her might actually be more harmful than the regular documentarians promise that telling a subject's story has the potential to make a difference.

00:42:44.291 --> 00:42:52.951

<v SPEAKER_3>The fact is that I can't help Judy because I can't produce her life the way I would produce a documentary about her life.

00:42:53.851 --> 00:43:01.971

<v SPEAKER_3>And even though I've said to Michael that our relationship is purely professional, I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been sloppy with boundaries.

00:43:02.571 --> 00:43:09.591

<v SPEAKER_3>Not least because when I started this project, I actually wanted to make space for real collaboration and even friendship.

00:43:10.451 --> 00:43:17.891

<v SPEAKER_3>But the big picture is that I wouldn't have a relationship with Michael or Judy if I didn't also need something from them.

00:43:18.851 --> 00:43:19.631

<v SPEAKER_3>So now what?

00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:29.480

<v SPEAKER_3>It's June, and my funding is almost gone.

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.060

<v SPEAKER_3>The series is scheduled to launch in early September.

00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:36.160

<v SPEAKER_3>I've got drafts of the first three episodes.

00:43:36.980 --> 00:43:43.980

<v SPEAKER_3>But I'm nervous, because my new rules for doing documentary seem to have backfired at every turn.

00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:51.100

<v SPEAKER_3>And when the series airs, it's not going to present the stories my subjects said they wanted to make at their auditions.

00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:56.740

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not even sure the series will present a story my subjects are comfortable with at all.

00:43:58.260 --> 00:43:59.820

<v SPEAKER_3>There's only one thing I can do.

00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:04.260

<v SPEAKER_3>I have a window before I have to lock these episodes down.

00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:13.720

<v SPEAKER_3>It's just enough time to get them involved, to invite them to make suggestions and requests, to criticize or change how I've shaped this narrative.

00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:21.520

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe they'll have ideas of what I have to do to change this series, to make sure I'm doing right by them by the time it comes out.

00:44:24.700 --> 00:44:27.020

<v SPEAKER_3>Next week, I'm opening up the editing suite.

00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.860

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm playing the drafts I have for Judy, Michael and Ernesto.

00:45:14.720 --> 00:45:29.248

<v SPEAKER_3>From Radiotopia Presents Radiotopia Presents, this was episode three of Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative, a series about what happens to all of us, subjects, documentarians, and audiences when stories about our lives become products.

00:45:33.468 --> 00:45:34.308

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane.

00:45:34.608 --> 00:45:36.288

<v SPEAKER_3>I wrote and produced this episode.

00:45:36.828 --> 00:45:38.228

<v SPEAKER_3>My editor is Sara Nics.

00:45:38.648 --> 00:45:42.028

<v SPEAKER_3>The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich.

00:45:42.048 --> 00:45:45.988

<v SPEAKER_3>Thank you so much, Radiotopia Presents' managing producer is Yooree Losordo.

00:45:46.508 --> 00:45:52.068

<v SPEAKER_3>Contributing editors on this episode were Chioke I'Anson, Michelle Macklem, and Eleanor McDowall.

00:45:53.088 --> 00:45:59.028

<v SPEAKER_3>Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem, and our music was composed by Eliza Niemie.

00:45:59.488 --> 00:46:05.588

<v SPEAKER_3>Additional music by Michelle Macklem, and additional production support from Dante Hussein and Mona Hassan.

00:46:06.148 --> 00:46:08.368

<v SPEAKER_3>Our episode art is by Justin Broadbent.

00:46:09.148 --> 00:46:19.848

<v SPEAKER_3>And a big thank you to my friends and sounding boards, Allie Graham, Ivana Dizdar, Kaitlin Prest, Christine White, Carla Green, Kate Sutherland, and Christina Hardinge.

00:46:20.308 --> 00:46:25.248

<v SPEAKER_3>Our conversations were so essential in shaping the many iterations of this episode.

00:46:25.828 --> 00:46:34.368

<v SPEAKER_3>I also want to shout out my friend Alex, who put in so many hours on behalf of Judy, her attorney and me during the making of this episode.

00:46:34.948 --> 00:46:42.268

<v SPEAKER_3>This reporting was also supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G.Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

00:46:43.488 --> 00:46:44.988

<v SPEAKER_3>Next week is our last episode.

00:46:45.688 --> 00:46:46.428

<v SPEAKER_3>I hope you listen.

<v SPEAKER_1>You're listening to Radiotopia Presents, from PRX's Radiotopia.

00:00:08.020 --> 00:00:11.480

<v SPEAKER_2>Before we get started, there's another podcast you'll want to check out from PRX.

00:00:12.120 --> 00:00:21.560

<v SPEAKER_2>Seen on Radio has a new series that tells the story of the only successful coup d'etat in US history, in Wilmington, North Carolina, November 1898.

00:00:21.960 --> 00:00:28.920

<v SPEAKER_2>It's a story with disturbing resonance today, in our time of orchestrated attacks against democracy, and the threat of political violence.

00:00:29.380 --> 00:00:33.260

<v SPEAKER_2>Look for Echoes of a Coup, Season 6 of Seen on Radio.

00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:35.440

<v SPEAKER_2>Listen now wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:40.240

<v SPEAKER_3>A quick note, this show is serialized.

00:00:40.660 --> 00:00:46.420

<v SPEAKER_3>If you haven't listened to episodes 1 to 3 yet, be sure to do so before listening to this episode.

00:00:47.360 --> 00:00:49.720

<v SPEAKER_3>The last member of our party has arrived.

00:00:51.660 --> 00:00:55.140

<v SPEAKER_4>Forgive me for the delay, but I'm welcome.

00:00:55.160 --> 00:00:56.260

<v SPEAKER_3>You're going to sit over here.

00:00:56.900 --> 00:01:00.660

<v SPEAKER_3>This is Ernesto, who's in the documentary also.

00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:02.220

<v SPEAKER_4>Ernesto and Michael.

00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:03.260

<v SPEAKER_5>And this is Sara.

00:01:05.320 --> 00:01:07.180

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy, do you want any snacks?

00:01:07.420 --> 00:01:10.680

<v SPEAKER_3>There are five of us in a cramped meeting room I've rented for the day.

00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:13.760

<v SPEAKER_6>I'm just so happy that all of you are here together.

00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.160

<v SPEAKER_3>I've been constantly thinking about the three of you for about a year.

00:01:17.180 --> 00:01:20.160

<v SPEAKER_6>So it's really wild to have you all in the same room.

00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:28.420

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto is to my right, wearing a pair of pants he's modified himself.

00:01:29.100 --> 00:01:32.880

<v SPEAKER_3>And my editor, Sara Nics, is to my left, running the recording equipment.

00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:41.440

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy and Michael sit across from me, she in a cozy sweater and lanyard, and he in a striking black and white Hawaiian shirt.

00:01:48.528 --> 00:01:51.048

<v SPEAKER_3>The series that I'm making is four episodes.

00:01:51.848 --> 00:01:54.948

<v SPEAKER_3>I have drafts right now of the first three episodes.

00:01:56.308 --> 00:02:01.688

<v SPEAKER_3>Episode one is about me, and episodes two and three are about you.

00:02:02.048 --> 00:02:05.268

<v SPEAKER_3>The fourth episode of the series is going to be about today.

00:02:06.648 --> 00:02:08.668

<v SPEAKER_3>So this meeting that we're having right now.

00:02:10.068 --> 00:02:16.748

<v SPEAKER_3>And I want to play all three of them for you today because they've been made out of things that you have told me and we've recorded together.

00:02:17.408 --> 00:02:20.328

<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, and I want you to be able to make suggestions of things.

00:02:20.348 --> 00:02:23.308

<v SPEAKER_3>This gathering was always built into my project.

00:02:23.868 --> 00:02:26.368

<v SPEAKER_3>I told everybody about it at the auditions.

00:02:26.808 --> 00:02:35.508

<v SPEAKER_3>That ultimately, I wanted to tell their stories within a broader project about how personal stories are used by the documentary industry.

00:02:36.088 --> 00:02:44.588

<v SPEAKER_3>And that part of the project would entail them getting to hear, weigh in on and talk to the other people featured in the series before it went to air.

00:02:45.088 --> 00:02:48.708

<v SPEAKER_3>And normally, in documentaries, this never happens.

00:02:49.188 --> 00:02:51.668

<v SPEAKER_3>This is very unusual, actually, what we're doing right now.

00:02:52.268 --> 00:02:54.108

<v SPEAKER_3>I got all of you to sign a release form.

00:02:54.328 --> 00:02:56.168

<v SPEAKER_3>That's very standard in documentary.

00:02:56.388 --> 00:03:02.248

<v SPEAKER_3>I give you these release forms and they say, like, I have the right to record you and use the tape however I want.

00:03:03.448 --> 00:03:04.388

<v SPEAKER_3>At my discretion.

00:03:04.548 --> 00:03:09.788

<v SPEAKER_3>But I'm just like, you know, your opinion really matters to me and it will affect what happens in the series.

00:03:10.308 --> 00:03:11.568

<v SPEAKER_7>That's your human nature part.

00:03:11.588 --> 00:03:13.468

<v SPEAKER_7>That's why you're doing this, what you're doing today.

00:03:13.908 --> 00:03:16.328

<v SPEAKER_3>The cuts I'm playing today are in good shape.

00:03:16.908 --> 00:03:19.408

<v SPEAKER_3>The sound design is still unfinalized.

00:03:19.728 --> 00:03:21.788

<v SPEAKER_3>I have to re-record some narration.

00:03:22.348 --> 00:03:25.908

<v SPEAKER_3>But on my end, they're just about ready for mixing and polish.

00:03:26.448 --> 00:03:32.628

<v SPEAKER_3>But according to the rules I created for this project, whether they're finished or not isn't only up to me.

00:03:33.248 --> 00:03:35.008

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I can make changes still.

00:03:36.288 --> 00:03:41.968

<v SPEAKER_3>The idea is to listen to my three episode drafts back to back, as a binging listener might.

00:03:42.468 --> 00:03:47.288

<v SPEAKER_3>With time in between each episode to discuss everyone's editorial ideas.

00:03:48.108 --> 00:03:54.068

<v SPEAKER_3>I've booked this room for the whole afternoon because we are planning to be here for a while.

00:03:54.828 --> 00:04:01.208

<v SPEAKER_3>I've given everyone a pen and paper and we're ordering some large pizzas I would like one with extra cheese.

00:04:01.948 --> 00:04:03.528

<v SPEAKER_3>to get us through this marathon.

00:04:04.308 --> 00:04:06.788

<v SPEAKER_3>Of course, it won't be a marathon for you.

00:04:06.808 --> 00:04:10.728

<v SPEAKER_3>I've edited a long afternoon down to about 20 minutes.

00:04:11.488 --> 00:04:13.888

<v SPEAKER_3>Just something to keep in mind while you listen.

00:04:15.248 --> 00:04:16.808

<v SPEAKER_6>So, yes.

00:04:19.668 --> 00:04:25.088

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

00:04:36.479 --> 00:04:40.299

<v SPEAKER_3>My subjects and I start our in-person listening session with episode one.

00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:54.559

<v SPEAKER_3>If you're listening to this, I'm guessing you've been moved, entertained, even changed by a well-told true story about someone else's life.

00:04:54.719 --> 00:04:55.499

<v SPEAKER_3>This volume good?

00:04:57.479 --> 00:05:03.619

<v SPEAKER_3>We hear about my first ever documentary subject, the teenage gymnast and her skepticism.

00:05:04.159 --> 00:05:10.559

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm interested in taking my work in this direction that's about the complicatedness of the documentary process.

00:05:10.739 --> 00:05:11.959

<v SPEAKER_1>Can I be honest with you?

00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:15.639

<v SPEAKER_8>What makes you think that other people are going to be interested in hearing that?

00:05:17.679 --> 00:05:18.679

<v SPEAKER_6>Oh my gosh.

00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:20.039

<v SPEAKER_6>I'm sorry.

00:05:20.059 --> 00:05:25.559

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, it's about like, I feel like as a subject, I'm interested in the ethics of documentary making.

00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:33.859

<v SPEAKER_3>So I'm not really sure how this is going to go down.

00:05:34.739 --> 00:05:37.479

<v SPEAKER_3>But no one needs to use the bathroom.

00:05:37.999 --> 00:05:39.999

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael is hunched over scribbling notes.

00:05:41.119 --> 00:05:46.859

<v SPEAKER_3>We listen for about 40 minutes and finally reach the moment of truth, feedback.

00:05:49.239 --> 00:05:54.619

<v SPEAKER_4>Amazingly impressed by your narrative and your diction.

00:05:55.159 --> 00:05:57.559

<v SPEAKER_4>It was so super professional.

00:05:58.859 --> 00:06:02.979

<v SPEAKER_4>I think that that's a very marketable gift you have.

00:06:04.159 --> 00:06:07.039

<v SPEAKER_7>And the music background was wonderful.

00:06:07.059 --> 00:06:09.879

<v SPEAKER_7>I love all the, yeah, everything was good.

00:06:10.299 --> 00:06:17.399

<v SPEAKER_7>And you'll see when it touches people, when this whole process is done, all the lucrative things that's going to come out of it.

00:06:17.599 --> 00:06:19.659

<v SPEAKER_6>You're both being so nice to me.

00:06:19.679 --> 00:06:20.639

<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah, thank you.

00:06:21.559 --> 00:06:22.799

<v SPEAKER_3>I'll take the compliments.

00:06:23.459 --> 00:06:29.059

<v SPEAKER_3>But what I'm really looking for is a sense of whether the group gets what I'm trying to do with this series.

00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:31.719

<v SPEAKER_9>I gathered the food and you're cooking it.

00:06:32.019 --> 00:06:36.239

<v SPEAKER_9>I went through all the trauma and experience and you're making it palatable for society.

00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:41.379

<v SPEAKER_9>Put it all on display and tell us, you know, directly what you're doing.

00:06:42.159 --> 00:06:43.919

<v SPEAKER_9>Brilliant, very revolutionary.

00:06:43.939 --> 00:06:52.059

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm glad you saw that because I think that this series is a response to seeing a problem in this industry.

00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:58.319

<v SPEAKER_9>By being so transparent, you are directly attacking a problem.

00:06:59.679 --> 00:07:02.959

<v SPEAKER_3>To have Ernesto reflect all this back to me feels really good.

00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.999

<v SPEAKER_3>It's the right starting point for having a productive conversation today.

00:07:07.899 --> 00:07:13.559

<v SPEAKER_3>At the same time, playing episode one was always going to be the easy part of today's meeting.

00:07:14.099 --> 00:07:16.639

<v SPEAKER_3>Because the episode isn't about any of them.

00:07:17.119 --> 00:07:18.179

<v SPEAKER_3>It's mostly about me.

00:07:19.459 --> 00:07:23.559

<v SPEAKER_3>So, episode two is where things get spicy.

00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.179

<v SPEAKER_3>It's all about Ernesto.

00:07:26.559 --> 00:07:27.839

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, it's kind of also about me.

00:07:27.859 --> 00:07:28.419

<v SPEAKER_9>I was waiting too.

00:07:31.179 --> 00:07:31.519

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah.

00:07:31.719 --> 00:07:35.359

<v SPEAKER_6>Okay, so I'm really nervous to show it to you all.

00:07:35.379 --> 00:07:35.759

<v SPEAKER_9>Me too.

00:07:37.659 --> 00:07:46.619

<v SPEAKER_3>I have never listened to something that I've made live with the people who are in the thing.

00:07:49.999 --> 00:07:52.239

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, we'll see how Ernesto likes it, okay.

00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:02.619

<v SPEAKER_3>After interviewing 30 strangers from the internet, I had to make some tough choices.

00:08:02.979 --> 00:08:06.599

<v SPEAKER_3>Select four subjects to make documentaries about for the series.

00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:08.719

<v SPEAKER_3>Here's who I chose.

00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:09.979

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto.

00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.419

<v SPEAKER_3>I watch Ernesto while we listen.

00:08:14.819 --> 00:08:19.519

<v SPEAKER_3>He looks out the window, then looks down, fiddling with a bracelet he's wearing.

00:08:19.539 --> 00:08:21.959

<v SPEAKER_9>And money comes at a cost.

00:08:22.599 --> 00:08:25.079

<v SPEAKER_9>The industry can be cut through.

00:08:26.379 --> 00:08:28.959

<v SPEAKER_3>At moments, his body seems to stiffen.

00:08:29.739 --> 00:08:33.979

<v SPEAKER_3>He tilts his neck, leans forward and puts his elbows on his knees.

00:08:38.999 --> 00:08:45.659

<v SPEAKER_3>When he hears the Radiotopia staffers comment on his story, why they think it won't work for the show.

00:08:46.499 --> 00:08:53.799

<v SPEAKER_5>He has kind of, I mean, it's a very generic sounding story.

00:08:54.139 --> 00:08:55.999

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto raises his eyebrows.

00:08:59.859 --> 00:09:05.979

<v SPEAKER_3>We get to the part of the episode where Ernesto, at the fashion show, finally gets into action in the dressing room.

00:09:06.619 --> 00:09:10.439

<v SPEAKER_3>And I talk about trying to find ways to keep the episode moving along.

00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.879

<v SPEAKER_3>So as you can hear, Ernesto's original take drags a bit.

00:09:13.899 --> 00:09:17.019

<v SPEAKER_3>So you don't get the full force of how I think he looks.

00:09:17.619 --> 00:09:19.019

<v SPEAKER_9>I'm a dragger.

00:09:20.239 --> 00:09:22.119

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto looks up at Michael and Judy.

00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:23.239

<v SPEAKER_3>He smiles.

00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:23.279

<v SPEAKER_5>Smiles.

00:09:34.439 --> 00:09:44.939

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto picks up a pen and begins writing � instagram He crosses and uncrosses his legs, plays with the buttons on his shirt then bends over the paper in front of him.

00:09:44.959 --> 00:09:46.619

<v SPEAKER_3>More note-taking.

00:09:47.539 --> 00:09:48.559

<v SPEAKER_3>What is he writing?

00:09:54.039 --> 00:10:16.139

<v SPEAKER_3>As we listen to the part of the episode where Ernesto offers to change his presentation and his delivery, even what events he tells me about, considering what would work for an audience, Ernesto, in the room with me, leans back, clasps his hands behind his head, and stares at the ceiling.

00:10:17.819 --> 00:10:20.539

<v SPEAKER_3>I can see now that Ernesto hasn't been writing.

00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:22.039

<v SPEAKER_3>He's been drawing.

00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:31.039

<v SPEAKER_3>A series of interlocking shapes, like a psychedelic chain-link fence, traced over and over so that the pen has worn grooves into the paper.

00:10:32.339 --> 00:10:35.419

<v SPEAKER_3>As the episode winds down, Ernesto glances at me.

00:10:36.319 --> 00:10:37.119

<v SPEAKER_3>I brace myself.

00:11:11.379 --> 00:11:11.399

<v SPEAKER_5>Mm-hmm.

00:11:11.419 --> 00:11:11.519

<v SPEAKER_4>You watch them.

00:11:11.599 --> 00:11:11.939

<v SPEAKER_4>Do you want to start or should I start?

00:11:12.119 --> 00:11:12.219

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't know.

00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:12.419

<v SPEAKER_4>No, you start.

00:11:12.479 --> 00:11:12.539

<v SPEAKER_5>I start?

00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:13.419

<v SPEAKER_9>Well, it hurts to hear my voice and how, you know, I talk like this and...

00:11:13.479 --> 00:11:13.579

<v SPEAKER_9>It's very weird.

00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.142

<v SPEAKER_9>I don't hear myself often, so I don't want to accept that I sound like that.

00:11:16.162 --> 00:11:19.262

<v SPEAKER_9>And now I'm like conscious and like I'm not going to sound like that.

00:11:19.502 --> 00:11:19.882

<v SPEAKER_9>Please no.

00:11:20.842 --> 00:11:25.822

<v SPEAKER_3>This is a classic response from someone who's new to hearing their own voice on tape.

00:11:27.122 --> 00:11:34.462

<v SPEAKER_9>Definitely felt cool though to be interesting enough to be recorded and things like that.

00:11:35.762 --> 00:11:37.422

<v SPEAKER_9>So in a way it was an ego stroke.

00:11:38.702 --> 00:11:41.702

<v SPEAKER_3>But it isn't the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

00:11:42.542 --> 00:11:46.702

<v SPEAKER_3>What does he want me to change about how he and his story are represented?

00:11:47.402 --> 00:11:48.422

<v SPEAKER_3>I try to prompt him.

00:11:48.602 --> 00:11:56.862

<v SPEAKER_3>Something that I feel like I struggled with in making this episode is that you are so multidimensional.

00:11:58.122 --> 00:12:02.142

<v SPEAKER_6>And I had to make something that was 35 minutes maximum.

00:12:03.202 --> 00:12:05.842

<v SPEAKER_3>And so what do I keep in and what do I leave out?

00:12:06.502 --> 00:12:10.282

<v SPEAKER_6>And how does that boil you into this sort of character?

00:12:10.302 --> 00:12:16.922

<v SPEAKER_3>Knowing that you are someone who likes to play with characters and is very self-aware about how you play with characters.

00:12:18.482 --> 00:12:25.462

<v SPEAKER_9>Say you took it off of me and made it into a philosophical question in the documentary world, which I appreciate.

00:12:28.302 --> 00:12:33.202

<v SPEAKER_9>But if anything is missing, I'd say it's capturing me and also my rebellion.

00:12:33.842 --> 00:12:34.742

<v SPEAKER_6>Say more about that.

00:12:35.022 --> 00:12:37.102

<v SPEAKER_9>Because of the part where I said the rape and police brutality.

00:12:38.142 --> 00:12:44.902

<v SPEAKER_9>I was like, you want to exploit my shock value, not you, but like the industry, because you're trying to just work for a company.

00:12:45.702 --> 00:12:53.282

<v SPEAKER_9>You want me to just say all these crazy things that happened to me, all this experience, and then put it out there, make money, and I get the 20 an hour.

00:12:54.242 --> 00:12:58.142

<v SPEAKER_9>You know, we're just going, I could talk about that, but what is it going to do?

00:12:58.162 --> 00:12:59.742

<v SPEAKER_9>From what I recall.

00:13:00.202 --> 00:13:01.042

<v SPEAKER_9>You do say that.

00:13:02.122 --> 00:13:02.902

<v SPEAKER_9>I didn't hear it.

00:13:02.922 --> 00:13:08.962

<v SPEAKER_9>You know, like that self-awareness, I think, is what lacked in my character in there.

00:13:11.222 --> 00:13:11.842

<v SPEAKER_9>So I don't know.

00:13:11.862 --> 00:13:16.882

<v SPEAKER_9>It's not that I want credit or anything like that, but I do feel like it was a conjoined effort.

00:13:17.102 --> 00:13:21.382

<v SPEAKER_9>And it's hard for me to say that because I don't really have the, I respect the art.

00:13:21.402 --> 00:13:26.142

<v SPEAKER_9>But you know, you kind of made it your thing rather than our thing.

00:13:32.260 --> 00:13:34.400

<v SPEAKER_3>Thing rather than our thing.

00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:36.180

<v SPEAKER_3>He's right.

00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:42.160

<v SPEAKER_3>From the beginning, Ernesto acutely understood how trauma becomes entertainment.

00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:46.940

<v SPEAKER_3>So you think I need to clarify that scene and put it back more clearly in context?

00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.000

<v SPEAKER_9>I'm sure there's audios somewhere.

00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:48.840

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, yeah, there was-

00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:49.860

<v SPEAKER_9>It'd be tough for you to look through.

00:13:49.880 --> 00:13:51.340

<v SPEAKER_6>I know, it's not tough.

00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.060

<v SPEAKER_6>It's my job.

00:13:53.060 --> 00:13:57.020

<v SPEAKER_3>I can totally look for more of the type of tape Ernesto is asking for.

00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:03.240

<v SPEAKER_3>But isn't there anything more substantial he wants from me before I lock this episode?

00:14:03.260 --> 00:14:05.180

<v SPEAKER_3>Or would you do it differently?

00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.840

<v SPEAKER_3>You know, would you wish that I had told you something different?

00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:10.100

<v SPEAKER_9>I don't feel I'm one to judge.

00:14:10.280 --> 00:14:11.420

<v SPEAKER_9>Like, I don't think I like it no more.

00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:12.320

<v SPEAKER_1>I want your judgment.

00:14:12.340 --> 00:14:13.300

<v SPEAKER_4>She wants your judgment.

00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:13.640

<v SPEAKER_1>Yes.

00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:17.380

<v SPEAKER_9>But I can't, I don't know, I can't respect-

00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:19.020

<v SPEAKER_9>I gave you my judgment and everything.

00:14:19.940 --> 00:14:21.880

<v SPEAKER_9>But I can't tell you I don't like it.

00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:24.180

<v SPEAKER_9>I can't, I don't want it to hold any weight on you.

00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:28.980

<v SPEAKER_9>For like, it shouldn't get personal, you know what I mean?

00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:29.840

<v SPEAKER_3>What do you mean?

00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:37.900

<v SPEAKER_9>You know, I'm putting my, my soul and my essence on recording and it's there now and there's nothing I can do about it.

00:14:39.180 --> 00:14:43.300

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, there is something you can do about it, sort of, like that's why we're here.

00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.700

<v SPEAKER_9>Anyway, I like the, you know, I like the powerlessness, you know.

00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.260

<v SPEAKER_9>It's on your hands, you know, what you do with my-

00:14:51.280 --> 00:14:56.420

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, usually it is in my hands, but this is why I've called this meeting.

00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:07.720

<v SPEAKER_3>I've called you all here today is because I really, I think that the fact that it's totally out of people's hands after they've let me in and opened themselves up and made themselves so vulnerable.

00:15:08.380 --> 00:15:10.560

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know if that's totally fair.

00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:12.260

<v SPEAKER_3>Was this fair?

00:15:12.280 --> 00:15:14.800

<v SPEAKER_3>And if it wasn't fair, what needs to happen to make it fair?

00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:18.280

<v SPEAKER_3>Do you need credit?

00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:19.420

<v SPEAKER_3>Is it about money?

00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.660

<v SPEAKER_3>Is it about editorial control?

00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:29.700

<v SPEAKER_3>Is it about having an episode where we replay your episode but you get to like give a commentary, like the director's cut?

00:15:30.020 --> 00:15:31.460

<v SPEAKER_3>Do you need to become anonymous?

00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:32.480

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm open.

00:15:32.680 --> 00:15:33.800

<v SPEAKER_3>Like I want to talk about it.

00:15:33.820 --> 00:15:34.680

<v SPEAKER_3>I want to brainstorm.

00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:39.180

<v SPEAKER_3>There's an opportunity here to do literally whatever we want, whatever we need.

00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.420

<v SPEAKER_3>Because I recorded all of you and I have to deliver something to Radiotopia.

00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.540

<v SPEAKER_3>And I have those release forms, but I also feel enmeshed with you.

00:15:48.560 --> 00:15:50.420

<v SPEAKER_9>I don't feel, I mean, I don't know.

00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.340

<v SPEAKER_9>It doesn't really, I don't care where it goes.

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.340

<v SPEAKER_9>I send it off.

00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.900

<v SPEAKER_9>It's in your hands type of thing.

00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:05.460

<v SPEAKER_3>It seems like Ernesto either doesn't have or isn't willing to give me anything else right now.

00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.560

<v SPEAKER_3>For him, the conversation is over.

00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:11.380

<v SPEAKER_9>I don't know if you remember, Jess, but I'm addicted to cigarettes.

00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:14.860

<v SPEAKER_9>So you're sitting in here for three, four hours.

00:16:14.880 --> 00:16:16.140

<v SPEAKER_3>We're going to have breaks.

00:16:16.660 --> 00:16:17.620

<v SPEAKER_4>Oh, boy.

00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:21.200

<v SPEAKER_4>So we're getting an eating break now, right?

00:16:21.260 --> 00:16:22.860

<v SPEAKER_3>No, we're going to eat and listen at the same time.

00:16:25.420 --> 00:16:30.600

<v SPEAKER_3>The sun is going down, but we still need to get through a whole third episode.

00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:31.720

<v SPEAKER_3>Onward.

00:16:36.140 --> 00:16:43.740

<v SPEAKER_3>So this episode, I'm the most scared to share because I think, Judy, Yeah.

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.660

<v SPEAKER_3>your life got really complicated while we were making this thing.

00:16:46.780 --> 00:16:48.200

<v SPEAKER_3>And so that poses challenges.

00:16:48.880 --> 00:17:06.160

<v SPEAKER_4>Actually, one thing that I'd like to comment on, I was moved by a comment that Ernesto said about you, that your efforts to do this documentary are transparent.

00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:15.280

<v SPEAKER_4>So we're going to really depend on that word transparent, then let it all hang out.

00:17:16.840 --> 00:17:18.780

<v SPEAKER_4>Because that's reality.

00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:25.940

<v SPEAKER_3>Out of all the people here, Judy and I are most alike in gender, race and class background.

00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.900

<v SPEAKER_3>And we definitely got the closest over the course of this production process.

00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.780

<v SPEAKER_3>Over the past year, we've recorded so many hours of her life.

00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.740

<v SPEAKER_3>And some of those hours were really hard.

00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:48.080

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm concerned about what it will feel like for Judy to hear these moments played back to her, accompanied by my sometimes critical reflections.

00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:55.300

<v SPEAKER_3>Have anything to say before we start?

00:17:57.620 --> 00:17:59.960

<v SPEAKER_4>No, I'm, you know, up for it.

00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:02.320

<v SPEAKER_3>It's 8 a.m.

00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:07.940

<v SPEAKER_3>on a blustery fall day in early September, and I'm waiting by the doors of a church on the Upper West Side.

00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.000

<v SPEAKER_3>The doors swing open, and there's Judy.

00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:16.560

<v SPEAKER_3>Again, as we listen, I study Judy's face, her body language.

00:18:16.580 --> 00:18:18.660

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm so scared.

00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:20.500

<v SPEAKER_3>Is she going to hate me for this?

00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.720

<v SPEAKER_10>Rental rent is $58,000.

00:18:24.580 --> 00:18:26.140

<v SPEAKER_3>Is she going to storm out of the room?

00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:36.020

<v SPEAKER_3>It's amazing to see.

00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:45.180

<v SPEAKER_3>But only five minutes in, we hit some tape of a good day, maybe the best day Judy and I have had together, and something else happens.

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.000

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, her excitement is great tape.

00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:51.500

<v SPEAKER_4>I won't have to live in a shelter for the rest of my life.

00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.020

<v SPEAKER_4>I'll be able to move into...

00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:54.220

<v SPEAKER_4>Do you want to stall?

00:18:55.580 --> 00:18:58.220

<v SPEAKER_10>I think this is brilliant.

00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:05.540

<v SPEAKER_4>I've been just so stressed out over everything.

00:19:06.120 --> 00:19:24.180

<v SPEAKER_4>The loss of my husband, who was my whole world, my soulmate, my mentor, my protector, my provider, and then the constant uncertainty of knowing what was going to happen to me.

00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:28.640

<v SPEAKER_4>The loss of the whole support system.

00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:41.340

<v SPEAKER_4>The story hasn't been resolved yet.

00:19:43.260 --> 00:19:53.400

<v SPEAKER_4>To your great credit, you were able to xtrp certain things that really conveyed what was going on in my soul.

00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:55.940

<v SPEAKER_6>You've had a lot going on.

00:19:57.260 --> 00:19:57.780

<v SPEAKER_4>Oh, yeah.

00:19:58.560 --> 00:19:59.980

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah, I mean at this point.

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.220

<v SPEAKER_4>My very survival.

00:20:02.020 --> 00:20:03.260

<v SPEAKER_4>My very survival.

00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:04.780

<v SPEAKER_4>I took it for granted.

00:20:07.100 --> 00:20:11.020

<v SPEAKER_3>Watching Ernesto and Michael relate to Judy, support her.

00:20:12.100 --> 00:20:15.160

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm really moved and relieved.

00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:17.480

<v SPEAKER_9>Yes, I really captured the essence.

00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:18.340

<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, yeah.

00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:18.920

<v SPEAKER_4>Beautiful.

00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:20.520

<v SPEAKER_4>To recapture the essence.

00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:22.920

<v SPEAKER_4>That's really beautiful, Ernesto.

00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.400

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm reminded of my old documentary dream.

00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:29.460

<v SPEAKER_3>To connect people through personal storytelling.

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:30.580

<v SPEAKER_3>To build empathy.

00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.020

<v SPEAKER_3>This is what I always wanted this work to be for.

00:20:36.540 --> 00:20:41.580

<v SPEAKER_3>Even amidst the whole elaborate process I've set up, they're here listening to Judy.

00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:42.700

<v SPEAKER_3>Comforting her.

00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:44.520

<v SPEAKER_3>Empathizing with her.

00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:50.580

<v SPEAKER_3>But the episode has only just started.

00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:54.540

<v SPEAKER_3>And we haven't gotten to the parts I was so worried about her hearing.

00:20:54.560 --> 00:20:58.780

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I think it's hard listening to this scene because you're so happy.

00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:04.320

<v SPEAKER_3>And we know that it wasn't easy after that.

00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.420

<v SPEAKER_3>Like, we were so happy that day.

00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.800

<v SPEAKER_4>Well, that was a major hurdle.

00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:10.820

<v SPEAKER_4>A major hurdle.

00:21:14.580 --> 00:21:15.680

<v SPEAKER_6>Okay, should we keep going?

00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:16.280

<v SPEAKER_4>Yes, please.

00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:16.880

<v SPEAKER_6>You ready?

00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:18.340

<v SPEAKER_3>We can stop any time.

00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:20.880

<v SPEAKER_4>I just was so moved.

00:21:21.820 --> 00:21:26.300

<v SPEAKER_3>When Judy is ready, we keep listening.

00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:31.080

<v SPEAKER_3>From that happy moment early in the episode, things get more complicated.

00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:35.180

<v SPEAKER_3>We hear about Judy's insistence on more research.

00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:37.540

<v SPEAKER_3>We hear her magical thinking.

00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:43.480

<v SPEAKER_3>How my many attempts to get her to save the things in her apartment seem to go nowhere.

00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:47.960

<v SPEAKER_3>I leave my meetings with Judy feeling exhausted and frustrated.

00:21:47.980 --> 00:22:01.200

<v SPEAKER_3>As the episode unfolds and I, in narration, begin to describe my own, often challenging, experience of working with her, I see Judy getting smaller and smaller in her chair.

00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:08.100

<v SPEAKER_3>Until she's slumped and twisted, her hair a kind of curtain between us.

00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:14.280

<v SPEAKER_4>If you can come up with ideas with obtaining money, this would be a tremendous asset.

00:22:15.020 --> 00:22:16.200

<v SPEAKER_10>And that's what I need right now.

00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.280

<v SPEAKER_3>I am flabbergasted.

00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:25.020

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm annoyed.

00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:32.060

<v SPEAKER_3>And if I'm being completely honest, there's this ugly part of me that wants you to hear this and be annoyed too.

00:22:32.820 --> 00:22:35.700

<v SPEAKER_3>Like, why won't this woman help herself?

00:22:36.760 --> 00:22:41.060

<v SPEAKER_3>I can feel myself mirroring her as I hug my arms around my stomach.

00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:51.820

<v SPEAKER_3>And by the part of the episode when I say I've realized that getting involved with Judy in this way may have been a mistake, I can't bring myself to look at Judy either.

00:22:53.100 --> 00:23:05.880

<v SPEAKER_3>Because even though I knew Judy would be listening with me, even though I tried to temper the episode knowing this, no matter how you slice it, it doesn't paint Judy in the most flattering light.

00:23:11.620 --> 00:23:14.616

<v SPEAKER_3>When the episode wraps up, we all sit in silence.

00:23:15.436 --> 00:23:17.556

<v SPEAKER_3>Even Michael doesn't have anything to say.

00:23:18.536 --> 00:23:23.196

<v SPEAKER_3>After a full minute, my editor, Sara, asks, How did you kill Jess?

00:23:23.216 --> 00:23:27.916

<v SPEAKER_6>I mean, that was hard to listen to.

00:23:30.596 --> 00:23:30.996

<v SPEAKER_6>With you.

00:23:34.156 --> 00:23:51.416

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah, I just feel like you've been through so much hardship, and I feel scared that listening to this was like another, just as more pain or something.

00:23:56.636 --> 00:24:04.136

<v SPEAKER_4>My reaction to hearing this is that the story is not finished yet.

00:24:04.656 --> 00:24:17.756

<v SPEAKER_4>In other words, part of the story has been shared with the audience, but I'm at a point now, a juncture, where the story, I want to make it into a happy ending.

00:24:18.616 --> 00:24:23.096

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy's not upset, I think.

00:24:23.416 --> 00:24:30.416

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy, what was it like to listen to something about yourself with people who are essentially strangers in the room?

00:24:31.216 --> 00:24:31.916

<v SPEAKER_4>I enjoyed it.

00:24:34.256 --> 00:24:35.476

<v SPEAKER_7>I love listening to the stories.

00:24:35.596 --> 00:24:36.276

<v SPEAKER_4>I enjoyed it.

00:24:36.716 --> 00:24:37.036

<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah.

00:24:37.596 --> 00:24:38.096

<v SPEAKER_3>How so?

00:24:38.396 --> 00:24:48.236

<v SPEAKER_4>Well, I was listening very intently, waiting for the unfolding of all your insights and statements.

00:24:48.636 --> 00:24:53.456

<v SPEAKER_4>It didn't bother me at all that I had Ernesto, Sara and Michael with me.

00:24:54.776 --> 00:24:56.496

<v SPEAKER_4>It didn't disturb me at all.

00:24:56.516 --> 00:24:58.096

<v SPEAKER_7>You feel like we are family now, right?

00:24:58.556 --> 00:25:03.616

<v SPEAKER_4>I felt very comfortable and I had no sense of discomfort.

00:25:03.836 --> 00:25:20.576

<v SPEAKER_4>But then again, you have to realize I have had to deal with so many different people and I've had to adjust myself so that I've had to live in shelters where there are people from all kinds of backgrounds.

00:25:20.956 --> 00:25:24.976

<v SPEAKER_4>You know, it's like I'm used to being sort of public.

00:25:24.996 --> 00:25:32.936

<v SPEAKER_4>So it doesn't bother me that my story has been summarized like this.

00:25:33.816 --> 00:25:42.796

<v SPEAKER_4>I felt that you captured a lot of the episodes of our interaction very insightfully.

00:25:43.576 --> 00:25:51.036

<v SPEAKER_4>I hadn't realized, to tell you the truth, how frustrating it was for you to be in connection with me.

00:25:51.056 --> 00:25:57.036

<v SPEAKER_3>The episode seems to have made an impact on Michael and Ernesto.

00:25:57.616 --> 00:26:00.336

<v SPEAKER_7>Because if you look at her, you wouldn't think she was going through all that stuff.

00:26:00.356 --> 00:26:03.256

<v SPEAKER_9>Yeah, you carry yourself a lot of energy and stuff.

00:26:03.636 --> 00:26:08.196

<v SPEAKER_9>Not that you didn't sound energetic in there, but there was a lot of despair, pain, loss.

00:26:08.216 --> 00:26:10.816

<v SPEAKER_9>I don't know where to go next.

00:26:12.016 --> 00:26:17.736

<v SPEAKER_4>You wouldn't realize that I had been living in a shelter for almost a decade.

00:26:17.896 --> 00:26:18.636

<v SPEAKER_7>I've been through that too.

00:26:18.756 --> 00:26:20.036

<v SPEAKER_4>Yeah, it's not easy.

00:26:22.536 --> 00:26:25.216

<v SPEAKER_3>Listening to this exchange is disorienting.

00:26:26.776 --> 00:26:33.916

<v SPEAKER_3>I was so afraid of hurting Judy, of hurting all of them, but everyone seems kind of unfazed.

00:26:34.576 --> 00:26:36.336

<v SPEAKER_3>Which is great, on the one hand.

00:26:36.356 --> 00:26:44.956

<v SPEAKER_3>On the other, it doesn't really help me figure out the answer to my big question about how to make more ethical documentaries.

00:26:51.876 --> 00:26:52.915

<v SPEAKER_7>I think it was perfect.

00:26:54.075 --> 00:26:57.135

<v SPEAKER_3>Michael takes his phone out of his pocket and checks his messages.

00:26:57.155 --> 00:27:00.475

<v SPEAKER_3>Ernesto shrugs at me and opens Instagram.

00:27:01.215 --> 00:27:02.835

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy just looks tired.

00:27:02.855 --> 00:27:06.355

<v SPEAKER_9>I think you got good content here, all three of us.

00:27:07.275 --> 00:27:12.235

<v SPEAKER_3>The little room is hot, and we've had to switch on the fluorescent lights because it's gotten dark out.

00:27:12.455 --> 00:27:16.295

<v SPEAKER_6>Okay, well, it's 7.30, which is when I said we would end, so I have...

00:27:16.315 --> 00:27:16.375

<v SPEAKER_5>I have...

00:27:16.815 --> 00:27:17.155

<v SPEAKER_6>I have...

00:27:19.535 --> 00:27:21.655

<v SPEAKER_3>I pay everyone and begin to pack up.

00:27:22.435 --> 00:27:28.955

<v SPEAKER_3>But I feel sort of empty, because after all this, I didn't really get what I was looking for.

00:27:29.855 --> 00:27:39.095

<v SPEAKER_3>I wanted to feel that as the series came to a close, I could finally work with my subjects, could finally build an equitable partnership here.

00:27:39.895 --> 00:27:47.235

<v SPEAKER_3>I blocked out the whole next month of my calendar to make changes to the series, to do another round of drafts if needed.

00:27:47.935 --> 00:27:52.375

<v SPEAKER_3>But the way we're leaving things, it doesn't seem like they have much interest in that.

00:27:53.835 --> 00:27:55.155

<v SPEAKER_3>Would you do it again?

00:27:55.175 --> 00:27:56.215

<v SPEAKER_3>We go back in time.

00:27:56.235 --> 00:27:57.495

<v SPEAKER_3>You know everything you know now.

00:27:57.515 --> 00:27:58.975

<v SPEAKER_3>Would you do this again?

00:27:59.115 --> 00:28:00.015

<v SPEAKER_3>Would you sign up again?

00:28:00.035 --> 00:28:00.315

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I would.

00:28:05.855 --> 00:28:06.955

<v SPEAKER_4>As long as it's with you.

00:28:11.335 --> 00:28:12.995

<v SPEAKER_3>It's nice to hear them say this.

00:28:13.015 --> 00:28:16.335

<v SPEAKER_4>Can I take a picture of you guys with everybody?

00:28:18.295 --> 00:28:20.315

<v SPEAKER_3>But something doesn't feel right.

00:28:21.575 --> 00:28:23.635

<v SPEAKER_3>All day, I've heard them defer to me.

00:28:27.475 --> 00:28:29.515

<v SPEAKER_3>Heard them shower me with praise.

00:28:29.535 --> 00:28:31.435

<v SPEAKER_5>Did you do it?

00:28:31.755 --> 00:28:34.435

<v SPEAKER_3>But it's what they haven't said that really hits me.

00:28:36.255 --> 00:28:40.555

<v SPEAKER_3>In the lack of feedback, all I hear is my power in the room.

00:28:49.735 --> 00:28:52.335

<v SPEAKER_9>How's it going, Ernesto?

00:28:52.555 --> 00:28:58.595

<v SPEAKER_3>After we last met, I realized my expectations of what would go down in the room were way off.

00:28:59.275 --> 00:29:13.455

<v SPEAKER_3>To expect anyone to decide how they felt about how they were represented in a documentary right away and in front of the person who made it, the person who's paying you, sounds a bit like when your boss asks you for anonymous feedback.

00:29:14.255 --> 00:29:15.375

<v SPEAKER_3>It feels risky.

00:29:16.035 --> 00:29:19.515

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe they all needed more time and space to process.

00:29:20.835 --> 00:29:23.155

<v SPEAKER_3>It's a few weeks after the listening session.

00:29:23.615 --> 00:29:26.075

<v SPEAKER_3>I reach out to Ernesto to check in.

00:29:26.515 --> 00:29:34.655

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I wanted to follow up with you about the session that we had recently and see how it's sitting with you.

00:29:34.855 --> 00:29:38.735

<v SPEAKER_9>I think I'm good with how everything is.

00:29:40.155 --> 00:29:41.475

<v SPEAKER_3>I reach Michael too.

00:29:41.915 --> 00:29:44.415

<v SPEAKER_8>I think it was a huge success.

00:29:45.175 --> 00:29:46.355

<v SPEAKER_8>I really loved it here.

00:29:46.375 --> 00:29:47.355

<v SPEAKER_8>Listen to the stories.

00:29:48.715 --> 00:29:50.675

<v SPEAKER_8>People want to feel like they're part of something.

00:29:50.695 --> 00:29:51.855

<v SPEAKER_8>That's how people are.

00:29:52.795 --> 00:29:57.355

<v SPEAKER_8>That your opinion matters, that your voice matters, things like that.

00:29:57.395 --> 00:29:59.175

<v SPEAKER_8>People want to feel special.

00:29:59.375 --> 00:30:00.515

<v SPEAKER_8>They don't want to be left out.

00:30:01.035 --> 00:30:01.355

<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah.

00:30:01.775 --> 00:30:04.015

<v SPEAKER_3>But alas, no new notes.

00:30:04.875 --> 00:30:06.155

<v SPEAKER_7>How's that other lady doing?

00:30:06.175 --> 00:30:08.855

<v SPEAKER_7>The one who was, yeah, Judy.

00:30:09.895 --> 00:30:12.335

<v SPEAKER_3>Actually, I have the same question.

00:30:13.135 --> 00:30:13.675

<v SPEAKER_1>I'm sorry.

00:30:13.695 --> 00:30:17.115

<v SPEAKER_10>The person you were trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet.

00:30:17.435 --> 00:30:19.035

<v SPEAKER_3>Please try your call again later.

00:30:19.215 --> 00:30:19.775

<v SPEAKER_1>Goodbye.

00:30:21.735 --> 00:30:25.395

<v SPEAKER_3>I did hear from Judy a few days after the listening session.

00:30:25.975 --> 00:30:35.795

<v SPEAKER_3>She said she looked forward to working together to improve the series, that she had some suggestions for the sections about her and wanted to work through them with me.

00:30:36.135 --> 00:30:44.635

<v SPEAKER_3>And I was like, yes, a year into working on this project and I would finally get the kind of feedback and collaboration I was hoping for.

00:30:45.755 --> 00:30:50.355

<v SPEAKER_3>Right away, I texted Judy back to schedule a call, but I didn't hear back.

00:30:51.815 --> 00:30:58.335

<v SPEAKER_3>For two weeks, I keep texting and calling and emailing, but Judy never responds.

00:30:59.435 --> 00:31:02.555

<v SPEAKER_3>Three weeks in and I'm reaching out to Judy daily.

00:31:03.215 --> 00:31:05.215

<v SPEAKER_3>Sometimes more than daily.

00:31:05.935 --> 00:31:07.095

<v SPEAKER_3>I am being annoying.

00:31:07.855 --> 00:31:14.775

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm familiar now with the struggle that is reaching Judy, but this time there is no more time.

00:31:14.795 --> 00:31:18.335

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not going to lie, I'm disappointed.

00:31:19.555 --> 00:31:26.495

<v SPEAKER_3>This period earmarked for revisions and collaboration was an essential part of my vision for this project.

00:31:27.415 --> 00:31:28.715

<v SPEAKER_3>And it's getting wasted.

00:31:29.915 --> 00:31:33.855

<v SPEAKER_3>It's mid-July and the series is coming out in early September.

00:31:34.655 --> 00:31:37.915

<v SPEAKER_3>At first, I reluctantly move ahead with production.

00:31:38.535 --> 00:31:46.535

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm still trying to get in touch with Judy, but I go ahead and track new voiceover, make edits to the final sound design and mix.

00:31:46.915 --> 00:31:52.895

<v SPEAKER_3>I run through the marketing plan with the Radiotopia team, reach out to press, and update my website.

00:31:53.635 --> 00:31:58.475

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm laser focused, and in terms of launch date, I'm right on schedule.

00:32:03.815 --> 00:32:06.423

<v SPEAKER_3>A month after the listening session, I call it.

00:32:07.183 --> 00:32:14.883

<v SPEAKER_3>I compose a text to let Judy know that since I didn't hear back from her, I will be moving ahead with her episode as is.

00:32:14.903 --> 00:32:19.563

<v SPEAKER_3>I press send, and a wave of relief washes over me.

00:32:20.323 --> 00:32:22.883

<v SPEAKER_3>I can finally wrap up this project.

00:32:27.243 --> 00:32:30.763

<v SPEAKER_3>Then I feel a surge of energy, of excitement.

00:32:30.783 --> 00:32:34.183

<v SPEAKER_3>I think about everything I've learned over the past year.

00:32:35.083 --> 00:32:38.823

<v SPEAKER_3>About myself and the kind of work I want and don't want to make.

00:32:39.743 --> 00:32:43.623

<v SPEAKER_3>I forged real relationships with Ernesto, Michael and Judy.

00:32:44.503 --> 00:32:49.263

<v SPEAKER_3>I can be confident that they won't be surprised by what they hear when the series comes out.

00:32:50.363 --> 00:32:53.603

<v SPEAKER_3>And each of them had several chances to give me feedback.

00:32:54.443 --> 00:32:59.163

<v SPEAKER_3>And even while they didn't, not really, they could have.

00:33:00.303 --> 00:33:03.083

<v SPEAKER_3>I did everything I said I'd do in this project.

00:33:04.143 --> 00:33:07.823

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe what I've learned is that the premise of my project was off.

00:33:08.483 --> 00:33:12.263

<v SPEAKER_3>And that I've been thinking about documentary collaboration all wrong.

00:33:13.523 --> 00:33:25.703

<v SPEAKER_3>Asking people to collaborate on a project that wasn't conceived of together from the get-go means that I'm always going to be the one who is more invested in both the process and the product.

00:33:26.563 --> 00:33:28.683

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe collaboration isn't the point.

00:33:29.383 --> 00:33:35.123

<v SPEAKER_3>And making documentary more fair really just requires more transparency about who this is for.

00:33:36.403 --> 00:33:41.783

<v SPEAKER_3>Regardless, now I'm comfortably back in the driver's seat, where I'm used to being.

00:33:41.803 --> 00:33:53.883

<v SPEAKER_3>I put on my noise-canceling headphones and go for a walk around my neighborhood, doing a last listen to the final cuts of episodes 1, 2 and 3.

00:33:53.903 --> 00:33:57.363

<v SPEAKER_3>It's hot out and there's a gentle breeze.

00:33:58.123 --> 00:34:01.823

<v SPEAKER_3>The sun is starting to set and the clouds are tinged with pink.

00:34:03.703 --> 00:34:07.123

<v SPEAKER_3>The credits start to roll as I walk up the steps to my apartment.

00:34:08.183 --> 00:34:13.203

<v SPEAKER_3>All of the episodes are sounding good and I feel a hum deep in my body.

00:34:13.923 --> 00:34:17.283

<v SPEAKER_3>The hum of satisfaction, the hum of pride.

00:34:18.483 --> 00:34:20.003

<v SPEAKER_3>Sometimes no answer is an answer.

00:34:20.023 --> 00:34:25.003

<v SPEAKER_3>Sometimes collaboration looks more like compromise.

00:34:28.463 --> 00:34:32.523

<v SPEAKER_3>I take off my headphones and realize there's another hum happening.

00:34:33.003 --> 00:34:34.223

<v SPEAKER_3>My phone is vibrating.

00:34:34.883 --> 00:34:36.143

<v SPEAKER_3>I look at the caller ID.

00:34:36.883 --> 00:34:37.243

<v SPEAKER_3>Shit.

00:34:37.783 --> 00:34:40.703

<v SPEAKER_10>All right, Jess, can you give me the light or is there an echo here?

00:34:40.863 --> 00:34:41.523

<v SPEAKER_10>I can hear you.

00:34:42.063 --> 00:34:46.423

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy is finally calling me back.

00:34:51.283 --> 00:34:52.543

<v SPEAKER_3>And she has notes.

00:34:53.263 --> 00:34:57.783

<v SPEAKER_10>And my presentation should convey a message.

00:34:58.283 --> 00:35:00.023

<v SPEAKER_10>Anyone can become homeless.

00:35:00.643 --> 00:35:03.143

<v SPEAKER_10>You did see that in the tape.

00:35:03.723 --> 00:35:04.923

<v SPEAKER_10>I recall that.

00:35:05.403 --> 00:35:11.343

<v SPEAKER_10>But the end of the episode that you put together completely lost the mark.

00:35:12.283 --> 00:35:15.223

<v SPEAKER_10>And that, in my opinion, should be revamped.

00:35:15.923 --> 00:35:16.563

<v SPEAKER_3>Revamped?

00:35:17.123 --> 00:35:18.523

<v SPEAKER_3>Completely lost the mark?

00:35:19.463 --> 00:35:20.543

<v SPEAKER_3>I start to panic.

00:35:22.143 --> 00:35:27.183

<v SPEAKER_3>So can you explain a little bit more to me about what about the ending needs to change in your opinion?

00:35:28.683 --> 00:35:43.303

<v SPEAKER_10>What was important to me was that I am a person who grew up basically in a normal way with two doting parents who protected me and made sure that I wasn't living a life of struggle.

00:35:44.223 --> 00:35:55.423

<v SPEAKER_10>Then I ended up having a life partner and he was extraordinarily protective of me and then he died and left me struggling to survive.

00:35:56.563 --> 00:36:04.043

<v SPEAKER_10>And this is the point that I want to convey to the public that you can't take anything for granted in life and I don't know what else I can do to you.

00:36:04.063 --> 00:36:05.443

<v SPEAKER_10>But it doesn't say that in the episode.

00:36:06.463 --> 00:36:07.623

<v SPEAKER_10>You didn't say that.

00:36:08.463 --> 00:36:10.063

<v SPEAKER_3>I can send you a copy of the script.

00:36:10.263 --> 00:36:11.503

<v SPEAKER_3>Like I promise it's in there.

00:36:11.523 --> 00:36:12.883

<v SPEAKER_3>It's explicitly in the episode.

00:36:13.423 --> 00:36:15.663

<v SPEAKER_3>And I can emphasize it if that's important to you.

00:36:15.863 --> 00:36:16.963

<v SPEAKER_3>I will emphasize it.

00:36:17.543 --> 00:36:23.943

<v SPEAKER_10>Why don't we simply delete what you're projecting in the end of the episode?

00:36:24.023 --> 00:36:26.703

<v SPEAKER_3>Judy is asking for huge changes.

00:36:26.883 --> 00:36:32.803

<v SPEAKER_10>You know, the exaltation and the joy that I got when I was awarded the voucher.

00:36:33.143 --> 00:36:35.623

<v SPEAKER_10>That was a happy moment in the episode.

00:36:35.643 --> 00:36:38.343

<v SPEAKER_10>And I think that was good, okay?

00:36:39.083 --> 00:36:41.083

<v SPEAKER_10>But to say the other thing, no.

00:36:42.983 --> 00:36:56.903

<v SPEAKER_3>She wants me to cut more than half the episode, aka the most personal and specific and interesting parts of the episode, including all the nitty gritty of why she's still living in the shelter she's calling me from now.

00:36:57.463 --> 00:37:04.123

<v SPEAKER_3>She's talking about the part of the episode that represents eight months of reporting, eight months of my resources.

00:37:04.143 --> 00:37:08.163

<v SPEAKER_3>I kind of feel like the fact that what I'm trying to show is that the system is broken.

00:37:08.203 --> 00:37:13.143

<v SPEAKER_3>I kind of feel like the fact that you haven't been able to get the support that you need, I think it's an important part of your story.

00:37:13.763 --> 00:37:21.963

<v SPEAKER_10>We can get around it by saying that the social service industry has failed tremendously by not helping people who really need help.

00:37:22.303 --> 00:37:24.723

<v SPEAKER_10>I'm begging you to remove that last thing.

00:37:25.343 --> 00:37:32.963

<v SPEAKER_3>It seems to me that what Judy wants is basically a public service announcement about homelessness, not a documentary.

00:37:33.923 --> 00:37:36.963

<v SPEAKER_3>Right now, the episode works because it's concrete.

00:37:36.983 --> 00:37:38.023

<v SPEAKER_3>It's personal.

00:37:38.023 --> 00:37:38.863

<v SPEAKER_3>It's specific.

00:37:39.483 --> 00:37:50.203

<v SPEAKER_3>To cut the details of her experience to just say the social service industry has failed without showing how it has failed basically tells listeners nothing.

00:37:51.243 --> 00:37:53.263

<v SPEAKER_3>But I am right up against my deadline.

00:37:53.863 --> 00:37:56.163

<v SPEAKER_3>The episode is due in 10 days.

00:37:56.843 --> 00:37:59.023

<v SPEAKER_3>I start desperately throwing out ideas.

00:37:59.483 --> 00:38:03.963

<v SPEAKER_3>I would like to change your first name in the episode to a pseudonym.

00:38:05.003 --> 00:38:12.783

<v SPEAKER_10>I think that we should keep the name Judy because I might want to use this presentation for other purposes.

00:38:12.903 --> 00:38:17.043

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, what if I can make something else that's for you to use for whatever purposes you want?

00:38:17.063 --> 00:38:21.143

<v SPEAKER_3>So I can use my version and change your name and keep what I want.

00:38:21.163 --> 00:38:26.423

<v SPEAKER_3>And then I'll make another version where I'll say anything that you want and you can use it in any way that you want.

00:38:26.803 --> 00:38:27.743

<v SPEAKER_10>I don't know, Jess.

00:38:29.563 --> 00:38:31.663

<v SPEAKER_3>I'll remove all identifying details.

00:38:31.683 --> 00:38:33.323

<v SPEAKER_10>It's not enough.

00:38:33.363 --> 00:38:36.483

<v SPEAKER_10>I want that aspect of my life committed.

00:38:37.003 --> 00:38:45.663

<v SPEAKER_3>But Judy is adamant that we cut everything that happens after she qualifies for her rent voucher, which happens less than 10 minutes in.

00:38:45.683 --> 00:38:52.583

<v SPEAKER_10>It's not conveying the story that anyone can become homeless.

00:38:53.263 --> 00:38:55.503

<v SPEAKER_10>This is a whole other path you're going down.

00:38:55.883 --> 00:38:59.463

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I have gone down a whole other path because this is my artistic project.

00:38:59.483 --> 00:39:20.783

<v SPEAKER_3>The thing is, Judy, I told you the last episode of the series is about correcting anything that was wrong in the first three episodes and also the listening session that we did together and also about this phone call because this series is all about documentary and how people who sacrifice time and vulnerability kind of get left behind in that.

00:39:20.803 --> 00:39:23.723

<v SPEAKER_3>So everything you're saying now can be in the last episode.

00:39:24.263 --> 00:39:27.403

<v SPEAKER_3>And so we just recorded you saying that and I'm going to put it in the episode.

00:39:27.423 --> 00:39:29.583

<v SPEAKER_3>That's how I designed the series.

00:39:31.223 --> 00:39:39.603

<v SPEAKER_10>But the other stuff I want to read is I never gave any authorization to convey the information to anyone.

00:39:40.183 --> 00:39:43.343

<v SPEAKER_3>I told you whenever I was recording and you always said it was okay.

00:39:43.583 --> 00:39:45.983

<v SPEAKER_3>You signed a release form that said that I could record it.

00:39:46.003 --> 00:39:53.043

<v SPEAKER_10>But I never brought up, listen Jess, I never brought up the fact that it's potentially treacherous to me.

00:39:53.063 --> 00:39:57.383

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I think I can shift some of the language.

00:39:59.063 --> 00:40:03.763

<v SPEAKER_3>But at this point, there are certain things about the story that evolved me and my experience.

00:40:03.783 --> 00:40:11.243

<v SPEAKER_3>And I also have a prerogative to my art and to say what is important that I think needs to be conveyed, that I think society needs to hear.

00:40:11.923 --> 00:40:14.623

<v SPEAKER_3>And, you know, I think that there is some injustice to that.

00:40:15.023 --> 00:40:17.523

<v SPEAKER_3>I think it's hard because I have your release form.

00:40:17.743 --> 00:40:19.483

<v SPEAKER_3>You know, technically I can do whatever I want.

00:40:19.483 --> 00:40:21.003

<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want to do whatever I want.

00:40:21.063 --> 00:40:25.203

<v SPEAKER_3>But I also have commitments that are outside of you that are to my art and to my profession.

00:40:25.763 --> 00:40:28.383

<v SPEAKER_10>I understand that, but I can't afford it.

00:40:28.403 --> 00:40:30.083

<v SPEAKER_10>I have no support systems yet.

00:40:30.463 --> 00:40:33.643

<v SPEAKER_10>I have no husband, no parents, nobody.

00:40:34.583 --> 00:40:35.403

<v SPEAKER_10>Nobody.

00:40:40.543 --> 00:40:41.383

<v SPEAKER_10>I can get sick.

00:40:42.403 --> 00:40:44.023

<v SPEAKER_10>And then who's going to take care of me?

00:40:45.123 --> 00:40:46.083

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, you have me.

00:40:46.503 --> 00:40:48.523

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not going anywhere unless you want me to go away.

00:40:49.203 --> 00:40:52.583

<v SPEAKER_10>No, of course, it's wonderful to have you with my friends.

00:40:53.483 --> 00:40:55.123

<v SPEAKER_10>And you're a wonderful person.

00:40:55.623 --> 00:40:59.423

<v SPEAKER_10>But you have to realize my vulnerability is enormous.

00:41:00.663 --> 00:41:01.563

<v SPEAKER_10>It's enormous.

00:41:04.383 --> 00:41:09.063

<v SPEAKER_10>Right now, I want to talk more with you, but I've got somebody waiting for me outside.

00:41:11.523 --> 00:41:19.303

<v SPEAKER_10>But if we collaborate and we come up with some degree of compromise, then it might be part of my legacy.

00:41:20.223 --> 00:41:20.923

<v SPEAKER_10>Okay.

00:41:22.403 --> 00:41:25.383

<v SPEAKER_3>I haven't agreed yet, but I'll think about it.

00:41:26.063 --> 00:41:27.663

<v SPEAKER_3>And I appreciate you expressing this.

00:41:28.443 --> 00:41:30.643

<v SPEAKER_3>And let me look at the episode and see what I can do.

00:41:35.243 --> 00:41:36.403

<v SPEAKER_3>I hang up the phone.

00:41:37.503 --> 00:41:39.203

<v SPEAKER_3>Then I hang up my face.

00:41:40.043 --> 00:41:40.723

<v SPEAKER_3>On my desk.

00:41:40.743 --> 00:41:46.663

<v SPEAKER_3>I know you thought you were here for a four part series.

00:41:47.323 --> 00:41:49.083

<v SPEAKER_3>Listener, so did I.

00:41:51.163 --> 00:41:56.323

<v SPEAKER_3>Next time on the final, final episode of Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

00:41:56.883 --> 00:42:01.583

<v SPEAKER_5>Despite the fact that we're like a nonprofit, we're still a business, right?

00:42:01.603 --> 00:42:04.363

<v SPEAKER_5>We're not immune to capitalism.

00:42:04.383 --> 00:42:06.543

<v SPEAKER_5>Like we operate within it.

00:42:10.543 --> 00:42:12.283

<v SPEAKER_3>I wrote and produced this episode.

00:42:12.843 --> 00:42:14.243

<v SPEAKER_3>My editor is Sara Nics.

00:42:14.823 --> 00:42:18.203

<v SPEAKER_3>The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich.

00:42:19.003 --> 00:42:22.343

<v SPEAKER_3>Radiotopia Presents managing producer is Yooree Losordo.

00:42:23.003 --> 00:42:26.463

<v SPEAKER_3>Contributing editors were Callie Anderson and Eleanor McDowall.

00:42:27.303 --> 00:42:30.263

<v SPEAKER_3>Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem.

00:42:30.823 --> 00:42:33.403

<v SPEAKER_3>And our music was composed by Eliza Niemi.

00:42:35.723 --> 00:42:37.743

<v SPEAKER_3>Additional music by Michelle Macklem.

00:42:38.543 --> 00:42:50.903

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks also to Sandhya Dirks, Zakiya Gibbons, Allie Graham, Alex Yuhas, Kate Sutherland and Caitlin Prest, who all helped so much to clarify and refine the ideas in this episode.

00:42:53.263 --> 00:42:58.623

<v SPEAKER_3>This reporting was also supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G.

00:42:58.643 --> 00:43:00.403

<v SPEAKER_3>Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

00:43:11.303 --> 00:43:11.883

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks for

<v SPEAKER_1>You're listening to Radiotopia Presents, from PRX's Radiotopia.

00:00:08.980 --> 00:00:14.420

<v SPEAKER_2>Hey, I'm very excited to share that our fellow Radiotopia show The Stoop is back with a new season.

00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:19.760

<v SPEAKER_2>In case you didn't know, The Stoop is a place to hear vulnerable stories that highlight the diversity of blackness.

00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:25.960

<v SPEAKER_2>Through history, storytelling, experts and opinions, there is no conversation that's too difficult to be told.

00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:29.700

<v SPEAKER_2>Host Leila and Hanau are award-winning storytellers and journalists.

00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.680

<v SPEAKER_2>And this season, it's all about black love.

00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:42.820

<v SPEAKER_2>But we're not talking love stories, but stories about traveling alone, obsessions, black love scenes in film, and breaking down the generational patterns that keep us stuck.

00:00:43.120 --> 00:00:48.380

<v SPEAKER_2>It's all love on The Stoop as they celebrate their 100th episode by deconstructing love.

00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:54.600

<v SPEAKER_2>Join them every other Thursday wherever you get your podcasts, and follow them on Instagram at The Stoop Podcast.

00:00:56.260 --> 00:00:59.340

<v SPEAKER_3>Please note, this is the series finale.

00:00:59.660 --> 00:01:05.800

<v SPEAKER_3>If you haven't listened to episodes one to four yet, go back to the first one before starting this episode.

00:01:09.320 --> 00:01:15.100

<v SPEAKER_4>And the end of the episode that we put together, we quickly got the mark.

00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.860

<v SPEAKER_4>And that, in my opinion, should be revamped.

00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:26.040

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm staring at my laptop in the dark, playing back the recording of my phone call with Judy.

00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:30.080

<v SPEAKER_3>I've been listening to it on loop for the past three hours.

00:01:30.580 --> 00:01:34.740

<v SPEAKER_3>So can you explain a little bit more to me about what needs to change in your opinion?

00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:38.800

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm trying to figure out what Judy's asking for.

00:01:38.820 --> 00:01:46.240

<v SPEAKER_4>This is why I wanted to participate in this project, to explain to people who are uninitiated about homelessness.

00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:51.500

<v SPEAKER_3>Or actually trying to figure out what I'm going to do about what she's asking for.

00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:53.620

<v SPEAKER_3>I haven't agreed yet.

00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:56.160

<v SPEAKER_3>Let me look at the episode and see what I can do.

00:02:02.845 --> 00:02:07.225

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

00:02:17.967 --> 00:02:20.847

<v SPEAKER_3>When my computer battery dies, I phone a friend.

00:02:21.247 --> 00:02:22.247

<v SPEAKER_3>Oh dear, what happened?

00:02:22.467 --> 00:02:28.627

<v SPEAKER_3>I just heard from Judy yesterday, and she like yelled at me for an hour after she's had time to process about all the private things.

00:02:28.727 --> 00:02:30.127

<v SPEAKER_3>And then another friend.

00:02:30.147 --> 00:02:32.467

<v SPEAKER_6>It sounds like your delivery day is quite soon.

00:02:32.887 --> 00:02:33.607

<v SPEAKER_3>It's going to be fine.

00:02:33.627 --> 00:02:34.247

<v SPEAKER_3>It's going to be great.

00:02:34.247 --> 00:02:36.907

<v SPEAKER_3>I actually, I feel scared, but I also think...

00:02:36.967 --> 00:02:43.607

<v SPEAKER_3>Because I have one week to get my series finished, and Judy has begged me to cut half the episode I've made about her.

00:02:44.107 --> 00:02:48.247

<v SPEAKER_3>So now I'm panic calling all my documentary producer friends for advice.

00:02:48.627 --> 00:02:50.847

<v SPEAKER_8>I just think that's a really tough position.

00:02:50.867 --> 00:02:53.387

<v SPEAKER_5>And I don't know, I feel for both of you because I get...

00:02:53.447 --> 00:02:56.907

<v SPEAKER_3>And some of them are giving me opinions I don't want to hear.

00:02:56.927 --> 00:03:03.047

<v SPEAKER_6>I just don't know that you get to make her precarious in your podcast to make a point.

00:03:03.847 --> 00:03:05.167

<v SPEAKER_3>No, I agree.

00:03:05.187 --> 00:03:05.887

<v SPEAKER_3>And I think that...

00:03:06.147 --> 00:03:09.607

<v SPEAKER_3>But I think that the changes that I was going to make...

00:03:10.327 --> 00:03:12.467

<v SPEAKER_3>It's safe to say that I'm spiraling.

00:03:12.927 --> 00:03:16.467

<v SPEAKER_6>We need to know that to make the point that you're making.

00:03:16.727 --> 00:03:17.767

<v SPEAKER_3>Well, this is the thing.

00:03:17.927 --> 00:03:19.267

<v SPEAKER_3>That's not the point that I'm making.

00:03:20.607 --> 00:03:22.227

<v SPEAKER_3>First, I'm incredulous.

00:03:22.707 --> 00:03:29.687

<v SPEAKER_3>It isn't my problem that Judy didn't respond to any of my messages and voicemails until the last possible moment.

00:03:30.647 --> 00:03:39.227

<v SPEAKER_3>I told her that we were done with the collaborative part of the production process, and Radiotopia is depending on me to deliver a final product.

00:03:40.147 --> 00:03:41.687

<v SPEAKER_3>Then I get pissed off.

00:03:42.447 --> 00:03:45.927

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm proud of the part of the episode Judy wants me to trash.

00:03:46.367 --> 00:03:48.447

<v SPEAKER_3>And I put so much work into it.

00:03:48.907 --> 00:03:49.987

<v SPEAKER_3>My whole team did.

00:03:50.567 --> 00:04:01.687

<v SPEAKER_3>We went through more than 20 drafts to wrangle it into shape, pulling just the right bits of tape, rearranging and playing with music and pacing till the episode packed a maximum punch.

00:04:02.667 --> 00:04:07.267

<v SPEAKER_3>In many ways, the episode feels like the crown jewel of the series so far.

00:04:08.727 --> 00:04:10.167

<v SPEAKER_7>Bravo!

00:04:11.447 --> 00:04:12.847

<v SPEAKER_7>Jess, what an episode!

00:04:14.207 --> 00:04:17.707

<v SPEAKER_3>Radiotopia's executive producer Audrey Mardavich agrees.

00:04:18.127 --> 00:04:23.667

<v SPEAKER_7>Just like you've done so much and gone so far and really pushed yourself, and so just like, bravo a million times.

00:04:24.327 --> 00:04:27.847

<v SPEAKER_3>It's the part of the series where I show off my documentary skills.

00:04:28.327 --> 00:04:31.387

<v SPEAKER_3>It's surprising, moving, illuminating.

00:04:31.707 --> 00:04:41.087

<v SPEAKER_7>Like I'm bought into this premise and like I do want to know how this character is going to land and what she's going to go through to have to get there.

00:04:41.307 --> 00:04:43.207

<v SPEAKER_7>But there's like a spiciness to it.

00:04:43.607 --> 00:04:48.947

<v SPEAKER_3>The story is strong enough that it could change how the audience understands Unhoused People's lives.

00:04:49.907 --> 00:04:53.747

<v SPEAKER_3>And it's the details of Judy's story that really bring it all home.

00:04:54.107 --> 00:04:55.447

<v SPEAKER_7>People want to know those things.

00:04:55.467 --> 00:04:57.427

<v SPEAKER_7>They want to know about the inner workings.

00:04:58.027 --> 00:05:03.427

<v SPEAKER_3>And Radiotopia's managing producer, Yooree Losordo, is also stoked about the Judy episode.

00:05:03.927 --> 00:05:17.267

<v SPEAKER_9>Immediately you're a reliable, engaging narrator, which I know just from the industry that's really like a Holy Grail in podcasting, that personality that you can latch onto.

00:05:18.187 --> 00:05:28.107

<v SPEAKER_3>The episode could also help me land some kind of award, or just my next job, at a moment in the industry where next jobs are harder and harder to come by.

00:05:28.127 --> 00:05:30.587

<v SPEAKER_3>I tried to tell Judy this.

00:05:31.467 --> 00:05:39.067

<v SPEAKER_3>That I also have a prerogative to my art, and to say what is important that I think needs to be conveyed, that I think society needs to hear.

00:05:39.227 --> 00:05:42.827

<v SPEAKER_3>But Judy won't just let me change her name or some details.

00:05:45.587 --> 00:05:47.767

<v SPEAKER_3>She wants me to toss most of it.

00:05:54.927 --> 00:06:02.807

<v SPEAKER_3>And as I keep going back to the recording of my latest conversation with her, It's not conveying the story that anyone can become homeless.

00:06:03.287 --> 00:06:04.927

<v SPEAKER_3>something starts to happen.

00:06:05.307 --> 00:06:10.467

<v SPEAKER_8>Had I been able to hear more preliminary versions, I would have been able to help steer you on the right track.

00:06:13.127 --> 00:06:19.747

<v SPEAKER_8>It should have been important to you as a documentary maker that the person you're making the documentary about feels like they're being portrayed accurately.

00:06:23.767 --> 00:06:25.387

<v SPEAKER_4>The one who hated the story I made about her.

00:06:37.547 --> 00:06:40.087

<v SPEAKER_3>The one who inspired this entire experiment.

00:06:41.287 --> 00:06:45.547

<v SPEAKER_3>And what I hear on that Judy call, it's a total deja vu.

00:06:45.567 --> 00:06:51.607

<v SPEAKER_3>I created this project to make room for the kind of feedback Judy's given me.

00:06:52.327 --> 00:06:54.387

<v SPEAKER_3>I asked her for it repeatedly.

00:06:54.407 --> 00:06:57.667

<v SPEAKER_3>And she gave me exactly what I asked for.

00:06:58.367 --> 00:07:00.147

<v SPEAKER_3>Late, but still.

00:07:01.227 --> 00:07:07.087

<v SPEAKER_3>And lo and behold, I reacted with the same talking points I used with Nicola all those years ago.

00:07:07.107 --> 00:07:10.707

<v SPEAKER_3>I invoked my legal rights to use her story.

00:07:10.727 --> 00:07:13.527

<v SPEAKER_3>I think it's hard because I have your release form.

00:07:13.767 --> 00:07:15.487

<v SPEAKER_3>You know, technically I can do whatever I want.

00:07:16.407 --> 00:07:19.607

<v SPEAKER_3>I laid on the guilt about my professional obligations.

00:07:20.007 --> 00:07:24.147

<v SPEAKER_3>But I also have commitments that are outside of you that are to my art and to my profession.

00:07:24.727 --> 00:07:27.847

<v SPEAKER_3>I went on a diatribe about my artistic vision.

00:07:28.427 --> 00:07:32.167

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I have gone down a whole other path because this is my artistic project.

00:07:32.447 --> 00:07:34.407

<v SPEAKER_3>This is my artistic project.

00:07:38.827 --> 00:07:42.407

<v SPEAKER_3>The more I listen to the conversation, the more embarrassed I feel.

00:07:42.427 --> 00:07:46.207

<v SPEAKER_3>I can't believe I spoke to Judy that way.

00:07:47.367 --> 00:07:54.227

<v SPEAKER_3>Here I am, neck deep in my documentary ethics project, and I basically threatened an unhoused woman.

00:07:55.327 --> 00:07:56.787

<v SPEAKER_3>What the hell happened to me?

00:07:58.247 --> 00:08:00.227

<v SPEAKER_3>Then, the light bulb moment.

00:08:01.327 --> 00:08:05.687

<v SPEAKER_3>I realize I haven't been honest with Judy, or with myself.

00:08:06.827 --> 00:08:12.367

<v SPEAKER_3>This isn't just about my artistic vision, or about wanting to appear professional and reliable.

00:08:13.407 --> 00:08:14.967

<v SPEAKER_3>This is about money.

00:08:17.607 --> 00:08:21.847

<v SPEAKER_3>It's the end of July, and I started working on this project almost a year ago.

00:08:22.847 --> 00:08:29.627

<v SPEAKER_3>Radiotopia gave me a budget of $50,000 to be delivered to me in three increments over one year of production.

00:08:30.607 --> 00:08:48.087

<v SPEAKER_3>On paper, $20,000 of that budget was supposed to pay me, but in reality, I was able to pay myself more like $37,000 by cutting corners, applying for grants, borrowing equipment, recording in shitty rooms, and relying on friends for discounts and favors.

00:08:49.067 --> 00:08:52.967

<v SPEAKER_3>And still, that just barely covered my rent and living expenses.

00:08:54.007 --> 00:09:06.767

<v SPEAKER_3>I had to borrow money from my parents to finish paying my sound designer, and take on other work, like making podcast ads in SponCon, as well as a bunch of teaching gigs to supplement my income from the show.

00:09:07.887 --> 00:09:11.167

<v SPEAKER_3>But now, in July, my budget is spent.

00:09:11.967 --> 00:09:16.027

<v SPEAKER_3>I literally cannot afford to spend any more time working on this project.

00:09:17.627 --> 00:09:26.167

<v SPEAKER_3>On the other hand, Judy has given me an opportunity here, to really make the kind of project I set out to make.

00:09:27.727 --> 00:09:33.347

<v SPEAKER_3>But can I do right by her, and deliver the product I have now already been paid for?

00:09:34.067 --> 00:09:34.627

<v SPEAKER_3>On time?

00:09:35.487 --> 00:09:36.327

<v SPEAKER_3>A week from now?

00:09:37.647 --> 00:09:42.927

<v SPEAKER_3>You know when you're overworking yourself and then you get hemorrhoids and a yeast infection?

00:09:44.287 --> 00:09:47.347

<v SPEAKER_7>Oh god, honey, I am so sorry, that is horrible.

00:09:48.427 --> 00:09:49.147

<v SPEAKER_3>It's Sunday.

00:09:49.847 --> 00:10:00.707

<v SPEAKER_3>Two days after I was supposed to hand over the final cut of episode 3 and the new script of episode 4 to my editor Sara Nics, who has now left for her summer holiday.

00:10:01.087 --> 00:10:06.987

<v SPEAKER_3>But Sara picks up the phone and listens to me until I have nothing left to say except the obvious.

00:10:07.587 --> 00:10:08.587

<v SPEAKER_3>I think I need a break.

00:10:10.607 --> 00:10:14.167

<v SPEAKER_4>I mean, there's no way that you're going to do E3 and E4.

00:10:14.227 --> 00:10:14.507

<v SPEAKER_8>No.

00:10:14.767 --> 00:10:16.827

<v SPEAKER_6>Yeah, but you can't do both of those this week.

00:10:16.927 --> 00:10:17.207

<v SPEAKER_6>No.

00:10:17.307 --> 00:10:18.487

<v SPEAKER_6>Nobody could do that.

00:10:18.507 --> 00:10:18.727

<v SPEAKER_8>No.

00:10:18.747 --> 00:10:20.027

<v SPEAKER_4>Literally nobody could do that.

00:10:20.047 --> 00:10:20.227

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:10:22.227 --> 00:10:23.587

<v SPEAKER_3>I think I'm going to call Audrey.

00:10:24.887 --> 00:10:27.767

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm talking about Radiotopia's executive producer.

00:10:33.147 --> 00:10:48.907

<v SPEAKER_3>I call Audrey's cell and tell her, probably, a little too much information about my nether regions, and that I need to cut the second half of Judy's story to completely redo episode three, which also means completely reworking episode four.

00:10:49.947 --> 00:10:57.547

<v SPEAKER_3>Basically, I need a great, big extension, one she already told me I can't have.

00:10:57.567 --> 00:11:01.127

<v SPEAKER_3>And Audrey's not thrilled.

00:11:01.747 --> 00:11:05.927

<v SPEAKER_7>I'm worried because I think episode three is one of the strongest episodes.

00:11:06.847 --> 00:11:09.427

<v SPEAKER_7>And we've also spent a lot of time on it.

00:11:09.447 --> 00:11:12.327

<v SPEAKER_7>You've spent a tremendous amount of time on it.

00:11:12.347 --> 00:11:15.067

<v SPEAKER_7>And, you know, we care about Judy.

00:11:15.087 --> 00:11:19.087

<v SPEAKER_7>We want her to come out well in the end.

00:11:19.607 --> 00:11:28.967

<v SPEAKER_7>And I'm just worried it's gonna feel, I don't know, like too watered down or not authentic or just not as interesting.

00:11:29.547 --> 00:11:34.787

<v SPEAKER_3>In this series, I've talked a lot about what documentarians need to do their jobs.

00:11:35.627 --> 00:11:39.767

<v SPEAKER_3>I've talked less about what bosses and distributors need to do theirs.

00:11:40.187 --> 00:11:45.027

<v SPEAKER_7>Despite the fact that we're like a non-profit, we're still a business, right?

00:11:45.047 --> 00:11:47.827

<v SPEAKER_7>We're not immune to capitalism.

00:11:49.487 --> 00:11:51.607

<v SPEAKER_7>It's really hard to get people to listen to a podcast.

00:11:52.987 --> 00:11:58.487

<v SPEAKER_7>It's really hard to get people to listen to four, five, six episodes of a podcast.

00:11:58.907 --> 00:12:04.567

<v SPEAKER_7>But to that end, like figuring out the business model is really tricky.

00:12:04.927 --> 00:12:13.067

<v SPEAKER_7>At the end of the day, the number of monthly downloads or total downloads is one way that we think about success.

00:12:14.327 --> 00:12:18.787

<v SPEAKER_3>Audrey and Radiotopia need the series to go out so that they can run ads on it.

00:12:19.287 --> 00:12:22.107

<v SPEAKER_3>So they can at least recoup what they've spent on production.

00:12:23.027 --> 00:12:29.327

<v SPEAKER_3>And they need the series to be interesting enough that listeners stay till the end, so that they can sell those ads.

00:12:30.327 --> 00:12:37.387

<v SPEAKER_3>Audrey notes that cutting the meat out of Judy's story means I'll need to figure out some alternate payoff for the audience.

00:12:37.967 --> 00:12:48.067

<v SPEAKER_7>We have to be pretty sure that this is something that will be like intriguing enough to get them even in the door for the first thing, right?

00:12:48.867 --> 00:12:51.447

<v SPEAKER_7>And then good enough that they'll stick around.

00:12:52.447 --> 00:13:00.327

<v SPEAKER_7>I think that for me, this episode is like one storyline that feels like it has real stakes.

00:13:00.827 --> 00:13:05.167

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, I just feel like that is prioritizing the audience over Judy.

00:13:06.347 --> 00:13:06.907

<v SPEAKER_7>It is.

00:13:08.267 --> 00:13:13.367

<v SPEAKER_3>But like, Judy is telling us like she doesn't really want people to know what happens.

00:13:14.347 --> 00:13:25.567

<v SPEAKER_3>And so if I go ahead, then we're really prioritizing the audience over the person who the audience is supposed to care about in listening to the story.

00:13:26.847 --> 00:13:28.047

<v SPEAKER_7>I do think what is.

00:13:30.867 --> 00:13:37.307

<v SPEAKER_7>This is what is hard is that what is compelling for a listener sometimes is not good for the subject.

00:13:38.287 --> 00:13:48.987

<v SPEAKER_3>But she concedes that if cutting half of the episode is what I absolutely want, if postponing the series launch is what I need, she'll make it work.

00:13:49.847 --> 00:13:53.307

<v SPEAKER_3>What this means for my bank account is another story.

00:13:53.327 --> 00:13:58.927

<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, for me, the implications would be four months unpaid where I don't get more money, right?

00:13:59.907 --> 00:14:09.227

<v SPEAKER_7>Yeah, I think that's the piece that I want to be very clear is that just, you know, when we started working on this, we established a budget.

00:14:09.727 --> 00:14:11.367

<v SPEAKER_7>That is the budget I have.

00:14:15.647 --> 00:14:23.687

<v SPEAKER_3>I stare at my online bank statement to see if, how, I'm going to afford to keep working on this project.

00:14:25.087 --> 00:14:26.467

<v SPEAKER_3>I do have some savings.

00:14:27.127 --> 00:14:29.587

<v SPEAKER_3>I can take on more freelance work.

00:14:30.427 --> 00:14:31.627

<v SPEAKER_3>It will be tight.

00:14:32.907 --> 00:14:38.307

<v SPEAKER_3>But by evening, Audrey lets me know she's sorted everything out on Radiotopia's end.

00:14:38.927 --> 00:14:41.547

<v SPEAKER_3>We can officially launch early in the new year.

00:14:42.867 --> 00:14:43.887

<v SPEAKER_3>I take a deep breath.

00:14:44.887 --> 00:14:46.867

<v SPEAKER_3>And then I hit delete.

00:14:47.787 --> 00:14:49.987

<v SPEAKER_3>On eight months of time and energy.

00:14:50.767 --> 00:14:51.567

<v SPEAKER_3>And free time.

00:14:52.467 --> 00:14:57.167

<v SPEAKER_3>And what, for some listeners, might have been the most interesting part of this series.

00:15:01.027 --> 00:15:05.607

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe now you're thinking, wait a sec, I've already heard episode three.

00:15:05.887 --> 00:15:07.747

<v SPEAKER_3>I've heard Judy's whole story.

00:15:08.507 --> 00:15:12.087

<v SPEAKER_3>The truth is that, actually, you didn't.

00:15:12.827 --> 00:15:20.547

<v SPEAKER_3>At least, you didn't hear the same episode I played in the room for Judy, Ernesto and Michael at our listening session.

00:15:21.827 --> 00:15:23.707

<v SPEAKER_3>You're never going to hear that episode.

00:15:24.267 --> 00:15:25.907

<v SPEAKER_3>It's my documentary series.

00:15:26.187 --> 00:15:27.527

<v SPEAKER_3>And that's what I've decided.

00:15:30.347 --> 00:15:40.787

<v SPEAKER_3>So I spend the next four months redoing episode three and episode four, and ultimately deciding at the last minute to add in one more episode for good measure.

00:15:42.047 --> 00:15:50.947

<v SPEAKER_3>The first order of business is to come up with a plan for how to fill the new space in episode three, left after cutting more than half of Judy's story.

00:15:51.667 --> 00:15:54.667

<v SPEAKER_3>I decide the move is to flesh out the character of Michael.

00:15:54.747 --> 00:15:59.847

<v SPEAKER_5>I wasn't trying to hit on you or nothing like that.

00:16:00.227 --> 00:16:08.287

<v SPEAKER_3>So I add in the storyline about me thinking he's hitting on me and my own messiness balancing the line between professional and friend.

00:16:09.247 --> 00:16:13.667

<v SPEAKER_3>Of course, part of this means circling back with Michael to see if he's up for the new edition.

00:16:14.887 --> 00:16:17.707

<v SPEAKER_3>Lucky for me, Michael is an easygoing guy.

00:16:17.727 --> 00:16:24.107

<v SPEAKER_5>You know, sometimes we don't understand each other, but it was still good.

00:16:24.487 --> 00:16:29.107

<v SPEAKER_3>Then again, Michael is perhaps saving his energy for bigger projects.

00:16:29.627 --> 00:16:30.387

<v SPEAKER_5>I'm not working.

00:16:30.407 --> 00:16:31.847

<v SPEAKER_5>I've been out of work for like two months.

00:16:31.847 --> 00:16:32.627

<v SPEAKER_5>I got laid off.

00:16:34.687 --> 00:16:36.707

<v SPEAKER_5>I've depleted mostly all my funds now.

00:16:37.987 --> 00:16:40.967

<v SPEAKER_5>I think I got like $1,200 to my name right now.

00:16:41.347 --> 00:16:43.347

<v SPEAKER_5>We owe the landlord rent money right now.

00:16:45.707 --> 00:16:49.187

<v SPEAKER_5>My book is about to come out next week.

00:16:49.407 --> 00:16:57.827

<v SPEAKER_3>I didn't have enough time in earlier episodes to get into this too much, but ever since I met him, Michael has been hard at work writing a book.

00:16:58.407 --> 00:17:02.067

<v SPEAKER_5>I want to really public speak and go around the world.

00:17:02.087 --> 00:17:03.047

<v SPEAKER_5>I like touching people.

00:17:03.127 --> 00:17:06.367

<v SPEAKER_5>That makes me feel good and it makes them feel good at the same time.

00:17:07.127 --> 00:17:08.727

<v SPEAKER_5>It's like a win-win situation.

00:17:09.747 --> 00:17:11.847

<v SPEAKER_5>Then I can tell people about the book.

00:17:11.867 --> 00:17:15.927

<v SPEAKER_5>We're trying to go global with this.

00:17:17.207 --> 00:17:19.467

<v SPEAKER_5>I'm officially off of parole now, so that's good.

00:17:21.007 --> 00:17:21.847

<v SPEAKER_3>Congratulations.

00:17:22.407 --> 00:17:23.727

<v SPEAKER_5>So everything is over now.

00:17:23.747 --> 00:17:25.247

<v SPEAKER_5>I can get my passport back.

00:17:25.547 --> 00:17:29.307

<v SPEAKER_5>So that way when I do my book tour and all that, I won't have no restrictions.

00:17:31.187 --> 00:17:34.627

<v SPEAKER_5>I paid $7,000 for everything.

00:17:37.067 --> 00:17:39.687

<v SPEAKER_3>So you're paying them to publish your book?

00:17:40.047 --> 00:17:43.047

<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah, they published it and they got a market and promoted it too.

00:17:43.627 --> 00:17:46.887

<v SPEAKER_5>I paid for all of that, for the book tour, everything.

00:17:47.647 --> 00:17:53.527

<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe you remember that the title of this series came from an email I got from a successful television producer.

00:17:54.207 --> 00:18:01.607

<v SPEAKER_3>She said she was looking for shocking, heartbreaking and transformative personal stories for her next big docu-series.

00:18:02.547 --> 00:18:08.467

<v SPEAKER_3>Somehow, I imagine Michael's publishers using the same canned language in their marketing plan for his book.

00:18:08.987 --> 00:18:12.247

<v SPEAKER_5>My publishing company, they say this is going to be a bestseller.

00:18:12.267 --> 00:18:14.687

<v SPEAKER_5>We are so happy we are part of this.

00:18:15.487 --> 00:18:23.167

<v SPEAKER_5>They put it on Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Walmart, Target, all different places, all over the world, different markets.

00:18:25.467 --> 00:18:27.867

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I really hope that they didn't scam you.

00:18:36.407 --> 00:18:40.707

<v SPEAKER_3>It's clear that Michael still believes in the power of the personal story.

00:18:41.567 --> 00:18:47.587

<v SPEAKER_3>Believes in it so much that he's willing to invest his own money, to go into debt to tell his own story.

00:18:48.827 --> 00:18:56.947

<v SPEAKER_3>Meanwhile, I'm over here having burned through $50,000 trying to tell a story about stories and the business behind them.

00:19:00.167 --> 00:19:07.767

<v SPEAKER_3>When I share the new episode 3 with Audrey, she still thinks the old, spicier version of the episode was better.

00:19:08.127 --> 00:19:09.387

<v SPEAKER_7>It's more revealing.

00:19:09.547 --> 00:19:10.727

<v SPEAKER_7>It's more complicated.

00:19:10.747 --> 00:19:17.687

<v SPEAKER_7>It's like realer because in a lot of ways it's like what played out, you know?

00:19:17.707 --> 00:19:28.207

<v SPEAKER_7>And I think what listeners are going to get is a version that's just a little bit more, I don't know, but then I'm sort of like, maybe they don't, maybe they just like won't know what they're missing and it'll be fine.

00:19:36.967 --> 00:19:38.347

<v SPEAKER_3>I got your extra hot coffee.

00:19:38.367 --> 00:19:38.727

<v SPEAKER_7>Hello.

00:19:40.967 --> 00:19:48.287

<v SPEAKER_3>Around seven weeks before the series is finally released, I meet up with Judy to play her the new version of Episode 3.

00:19:48.947 --> 00:19:51.627

<v SPEAKER_3>Together we go through the script line by line.

00:19:51.647 --> 00:19:54.447

<v SPEAKER_10>Can we use another word other than elderly?

00:19:54.467 --> 00:19:57.007

<v SPEAKER_10>Can we use the word mature?

00:19:57.687 --> 00:20:01.487

<v SPEAKER_3>The changes Judy asks for this time around are pretty laid back.

00:20:02.067 --> 00:20:15.467

<v SPEAKER_3>I guess it's because the new version of the episode goes into a lot less detail about her life, since as per her request, I cut everything that happens to her after she moves from the church shelter to the one run by the city.

00:20:15.907 --> 00:20:21.687

<v SPEAKER_3>So there's nothing about what happened with her court case or her eviction or the stuff in her apartment.

00:20:21.947 --> 00:20:28.507

<v SPEAKER_3>When I started this project, the whole idea that I had was like, I want everybody to feel like they're getting what they want out of the process.

00:20:29.307 --> 00:20:41.407

<v SPEAKER_3>And the thing that I've realized is that this project that I had for us to have a win-win situation, it was a little bit doomed to fail.

00:20:42.287 --> 00:20:46.107

<v SPEAKER_10>It required a monumental amount of money, one thing.

00:20:46.147 --> 00:20:51.507

<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, but it also required us having the same goal.

00:20:51.807 --> 00:20:59.147

<v SPEAKER_10>My input was to tell my story of what it's like to be unstably housed.

00:20:59.767 --> 00:21:01.807

<v SPEAKER_10>And that's basically what my goal was.

00:21:01.827 --> 00:21:04.427

<v SPEAKER_10>So in a sense, we don't have different goals.

00:21:05.727 --> 00:21:07.187

<v SPEAKER_3>But my project isn't about that.

00:21:08.467 --> 00:21:13.487

<v SPEAKER_3>And the thing that I've realized is that it's not going to be fair.

00:21:15.947 --> 00:21:17.367

<v SPEAKER_10>But it should be truthful.

00:21:18.067 --> 00:21:18.447

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:21:19.067 --> 00:21:22.487

<v SPEAKER_3>But I think it's truthful to say it's not going to be fair because I'm in charge.

00:21:25.667 --> 00:21:27.707

<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm also the one holding all the cards.

00:21:28.227 --> 00:21:30.007

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm the one that is doing the edits.

00:21:30.287 --> 00:21:31.727

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm the one that knows about radio.

00:21:31.747 --> 00:21:32.907

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm the one that has the platform.

00:21:32.927 --> 00:21:34.087

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm the one that's not homeless.

00:21:35.407 --> 00:21:42.327

<v SPEAKER_3>I constructed a truth that misses a lot in order to tell the story that I wanted to tell.

00:21:42.347 --> 00:21:52.547

<v SPEAKER_3>And I could have told a million other stories that maybe were more aligned with this story about homelessness or a story about Michael's public speaking class or any number of things.

00:21:52.567 --> 00:21:54.327

<v SPEAKER_3>But I'm the main character.

00:21:54.347 --> 00:21:55.207

<v SPEAKER_3>It's my story.

00:21:55.607 --> 00:22:06.127

<v SPEAKER_3>And I think that I deluded myself and maybe also deluded you by letting you feel that we were doing this really together and that we were collaborating when ultimately I'm going to publish this now.

00:22:07.267 --> 00:22:09.567

<v SPEAKER_10>Episode 4 has not been done yet though, right?

00:22:09.727 --> 00:22:10.627

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm working on it.

00:22:11.407 --> 00:22:12.587

<v SPEAKER_10>So will I get to hear it?

00:22:12.687 --> 00:22:13.067

<v SPEAKER_10>I mean...

00:22:13.187 --> 00:22:16.367

<v SPEAKER_3>There's probably not going to be enough time because your life is chaotic.

00:22:16.587 --> 00:22:17.847

<v SPEAKER_3>My life is chaotic.

00:22:18.127 --> 00:22:19.667

<v SPEAKER_3>But there needs to be a product.

00:22:20.587 --> 00:22:22.087

<v SPEAKER_3>You know, I have to do it on time.

00:22:22.407 --> 00:22:23.787

<v SPEAKER_10>There's not time for anyone to edit.

00:22:23.807 --> 00:22:24.727

<v SPEAKER_10>It's totally understandable.

00:22:26.287 --> 00:22:27.867

<v SPEAKER_10>It's like doing a painting.

00:22:27.887 --> 00:22:33.027

<v SPEAKER_10>You know, you start it and at some point you make the decision that it's finished.

00:22:34.287 --> 00:22:36.407

<v SPEAKER_3>This is the conceit of narrative.

00:22:37.347 --> 00:22:38.807

<v SPEAKER_3>That the story can be finished.

00:22:39.867 --> 00:22:41.987

<v SPEAKER_3>Of course Judy's story isn't finished.

00:22:44.167 --> 00:22:47.727

<v SPEAKER_3>But here, I'm the one who gets to decide where it ends.

00:22:47.747 --> 00:22:55.827

<v SPEAKER_10>The listener is probably thinking to myself, well, is she going to get housed or is she not going to get housed?

00:22:56.007 --> 00:22:59.127

<v SPEAKER_10>In the end, the listener is going to be your judge.

00:22:59.527 --> 00:23:05.727

<v SPEAKER_10>You're leaving the listener hanging about the status of my life situation.

00:23:06.107 --> 00:23:06.987

<v SPEAKER_3>I kind of like that.

00:23:07.007 --> 00:23:08.747

<v SPEAKER_3>I kind of like that.

00:23:08.767 --> 00:23:09.887

<v SPEAKER_10>It's a little confusing.

00:23:10.507 --> 00:23:12.007

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, but I think I like that too.

00:23:14.747 --> 00:23:15.167

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:23:17.287 --> 00:23:22.887

<v SPEAKER_3>I thought I wanted to make documentaries that were transformative and meaningful for the people involved.

00:23:23.887 --> 00:23:25.287

<v SPEAKER_3>And look, I still do.

00:23:26.287 --> 00:23:37.427

<v SPEAKER_3>But if I'm honest, a big part of me also wants the success, accolades, and career milestone that come with making a series for a reputed network.

00:23:38.367 --> 00:23:46.787

<v SPEAKER_3>And maybe that's been clear to you for a while now, given just how much of this series has been me narrating my experience of making this thing.

00:23:48.287 --> 00:23:51.067

<v SPEAKER_3>But that's the holy grail in podcasting, right?

00:23:52.027 --> 00:23:55.167

<v SPEAKER_3>To be a relatable host, someone to latch onto.

00:23:56.167 --> 00:23:59.707

<v SPEAKER_3>This series wouldn't have sold without a strong main character.

00:24:00.447 --> 00:24:09.987

<v SPEAKER_3>And if I wasn't going to give you the juice of my subject stories if they didn't also want to give it to you, that main character was always going to be me.

00:24:11.807 --> 00:24:22.747

<v SPEAKER_3>And while I changed some of the rules to make the process of telling my subject stories more fair, more ethical, my subjects were never my target audience.

00:24:24.107 --> 00:24:27.767

<v SPEAKER_3>My target audience was you.

00:24:27.787 --> 00:24:32.567

<v SPEAKER_3>So was this series shocking, heartbreaking and transformative enough for you?

00:24:34.447 --> 00:24:40.007

<v SPEAKER_3>Or would you have preferred the more detailed, more spicy narrative of the episode you never heard?

00:24:41.707 --> 00:24:43.987

<v SPEAKER_3>What kept you listening all the way through?

00:24:44.007 --> 00:24:53.427

<v SPEAKER_3>And what do you plan on doing now, with this story Ernesto, Michael, Judy and I have shared with you?

00:24:57.027 --> 00:24:57.987

<v SPEAKER_3>Some cash.

00:24:58.487 --> 00:25:01.107

<v SPEAKER_10>And basically these are like little tweaks, you know.

00:25:01.127 --> 00:25:06.287

<v SPEAKER_10>It's not any, I'm not saying anything has to be majorly revised.

00:25:06.367 --> 00:25:08.907

<v SPEAKER_10>It's just like points of clarification.

00:25:09.667 --> 00:25:13.247

<v SPEAKER_10>Which I think will improve your presentation in this documentary.

00:25:18.887 --> 00:25:19.847

<v SPEAKER_10>Thank you so much.

00:25:20.027 --> 00:25:21.807

<v SPEAKER_10>This is so appreciated.

00:25:21.827 --> 00:25:23.167

<v SPEAKER_5>I really need this help.

00:25:23.547 --> 00:25:24.487

<v SPEAKER_10>I really need this help.

00:25:24.507 --> 00:25:24.607

<v SPEAKER_5>Please help.

00:25:29.907 --> 00:25:30.187

<v SPEAKER_9>You.

00:25:30.207 --> 00:25:33.154

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I mean, I appreciate you coming here and spending this time walking through this with me.

00:25:33.174 --> 00:25:34.114

<v SPEAKER_10>Look, I want you to succeed.

00:25:34.134 --> 00:25:37.134

<v SPEAKER_10>I want this to be a launch for your career.

00:25:37.434 --> 00:25:38.054

<v SPEAKER_9>I think it will.

00:26:26.154 --> 00:26:29.194

<v SPEAKER_3>That was an excerpt of the track, Success in the Making by.

00:26:34.385 --> 00:26:40.005

<v SPEAKER_3>And from Radiotopia Presents, this was Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

00:27:10.805 --> 00:27:11.605

<v SPEAKER_3>I'm Jess Shane.

00:27:12.225 --> 00:27:13.925

<v SPEAKER_3>I wrote and produced this episode.

00:27:14.405 --> 00:27:19.905

<v SPEAKER_3>I've said it before, but there was a truly incredible team behind me who all made this thing possible.

00:27:20.485 --> 00:27:21.325

<v SPEAKER_9>I'm Sara Nics.

00:27:21.685 --> 00:27:23.105

<v SPEAKER_9>I was an editor on the series.

00:27:23.505 --> 00:27:27.085

<v SPEAKER_3>Sara Nics worked closely with me on every episode of the series.

00:27:27.625 --> 00:27:31.125

<v SPEAKER_3>Did you know that editors often work double duty as life coaches?

00:27:31.605 --> 00:27:32.325

<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks, Sara.

00:27:33.045 --> 00:27:34.105

<v SPEAKER_7>I'm Audrey Mardavich.

00:27:34.605 --> 00:27:36.965

<v SPEAKER_7>I'm the executive producer at Radiotopia.

00:27:38.065 --> 00:27:42.865

<v SPEAKER_9>Hi, this is Yooree Losordo, the director of network operations at Radiotopia.

00:27:43.245 --> 00:27:45.985

<v SPEAKER_3>Audrey and Yooree, what incredible sports.

00:27:46.585 --> 00:27:50.365

<v SPEAKER_3>Two network people who really care about the art of podcasting.

00:27:50.705 --> 00:27:55.685

<v SPEAKER_3>Thank you for trusting me enough to let me record all of our meetings and turn you into characters.

00:27:56.425 --> 00:27:59.585

<v SPEAKER_2>I'm Michelle Macklem, the sound designer and mix engineer.

00:28:00.305 --> 00:28:02.065

<v SPEAKER_3>Did this show not sound fantastic?

00:28:03.045 --> 00:28:08.545

<v SPEAKER_3>Especially considering that I recorded like 25% of it over the phone or on my voice memo app.

00:28:09.085 --> 00:28:09.865

<v SPEAKER_3>Such skill.

00:28:10.285 --> 00:28:11.065

<v SPEAKER_3>What an ear.

00:28:11.705 --> 00:28:15.285

<v SPEAKER_3>Michelle also brought plenty of editorial ideas to the production.

00:28:15.805 --> 00:28:19.765

<v SPEAKER_3>Like that behind the scenes moment at Ernesto's fashion show, Chef's Kiss.

00:28:20.705 --> 00:28:24.045

<v SPEAKER_9>Hi, I'm Eliza Nyemi and I composed the music for this series.

00:28:24.465 --> 00:28:28.065

<v SPEAKER_3>The song that plays in the credits is called Flip and it's off my EP Glass.

00:28:28.965 --> 00:28:32.605

<v SPEAKER_3>Huge fan of Eliza's music on this series and beyond.

00:28:33.245 --> 00:28:35.945

<v SPEAKER_3>I highly recommend her entire discography.

00:28:36.505 --> 00:28:37.845

<v SPEAKER_3>Get it on Bandcamp, baby.

00:28:38.985 --> 00:28:41.485

<v SPEAKER_3>Additional music was composed by Michelle Macklem.

00:28:42.205 --> 00:28:45.265

<v SPEAKER_3>This episode's contributing editor was Callie Anderson.

00:28:45.645 --> 00:28:49.285

<v SPEAKER_3>Thank you Callie for swooping in in the final moments with essential notes.

00:28:50.225 --> 00:29:05.185

<v SPEAKER_3>Thank you also to Eleanor McDowall, Christina Hardinge, Allie Graham, Alex Yuhas, Caitlin Prest, Chioke I'Anson, Evan Cartwright, Ivana Dizdar, Kate Sutherland and Matthew Pitt, who all were essential sounding boards as I was finishing this project.

00:29:06.305 --> 00:29:18.625

<v SPEAKER_3>And of course this series wouldn't have been possible without the trust and thoughtfulness of my documentary subjects, Ernesto, Michael and Judy, whose vibrant selves could never fit into the confines of any documentary.

00:29:19.345 --> 00:29:25.405

<v SPEAKER_3>Stay tuned on my socials and Radiotopia's, because the show will be having a few events in the upcoming months.

00:29:26.025 --> 00:29:29.445

<v SPEAKER_3>Conversations about the series and where we want to go from here.

00:29:29.845 --> 00:29:38.565

<v SPEAKER_3>Our episode art was by Justin Broadbent, and this reporting was supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G.Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

00:29:39.085 --> 00:29:45.925

<v SPEAKER_3>I'd also like to thank the extended, shocking, heartbreaking, transformative team, without whom you may not have heard about this project.

00:29:46.545 --> 00:29:53.125

<v SPEAKER_3>For PRX Marketing, Gretchen Borzi, David Cotrone, Sher Delva, Apu Gotay and Maggie Goreville.

00:29:53.845 --> 00:30:00.265

<v SPEAKER_3>For PRX Sponsorship, Audrey Davidson, Melissa Garcia-Hool, Carolyn Willander and Jeanne Yeh.

00:30:00.845 --> 00:30:10.425

<v SPEAKER_3>Finally, I want to say that this series was created in response to a lot of reading, screenings and conversations with people much smarter and more well read than me.

00:30:11.325 --> 00:30:18.005

<v SPEAKER_3>I've made a bibliography of books, articles, films and artworks that inspired me while making and conceiving of this project.

00:30:18.105 --> 00:30:27.705

<v SPEAKER_3>And I've made it available on my show page at radiotopiapresents.fm for anyone who wants to learn more and dig deeper into some of the questions I hope I'm leaving you with.

00:30:28.585 --> 00:30:30.525

<v SPEAKER_3>And thank you again for listening.

00:30:31.465 --> 00:30:33.025

<v SPEAKER_3>This is the end of my budget.

00:30:33.345 --> 00:30:35.185

<v SPEAKER_3>Next time we meet, I can't pay you.

00:30:37.165 --> 00:30:38.425

<v SPEAKER_10>Of course, if you sell this.

00:30:38.445 --> 00:30:39.905

<v SPEAKER_3>I already sold it.

00:30:40.225 --> 00:30:41.785

<v SPEAKER_10>Oh, you sold the whole thing?

00:30:41.805 --> 00:30:42.965

<v SPEAKER_10>Before they sold it?

00:30:43.385 --> 00:30:45.625

<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I mean, that's how I've been paid.

00:30:45.645 --> 00:30:45.985

<v SPEAKER_3>It's true.

00:30:46.005 --> 00:30:46.985

<v SPEAKER_3>Somebody else might buy it.

00:30:47.005 --> 00:30:47.945

<v SPEAKER_3>If that happens, I'll...

00:30:48.405 --> 00:30:49.725

<v SPEAKER_10>Well, don't forget about me.