Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative

[00:00:00] We hear a lot about the value of stories, that stories are powerful, therapeutic, that they can change the world, but is that mostly bullshit? 

Documentaries are supposed to be impactful, yes, but they're also entertainment. They're being sold, right? 

As a documentarian, my job is to tell other people's stories.

People trust me. They open their hearts to me. 

My life spiraled out of control. 

Police brutality, I mean. 

Psychologically, I was messed up. Psychologically, I still am. 

The documentary industry is booming. There's real money on the table here, and the more people open their hearts, the higher the market value of their stories.

But at what cost? It was like one of the hardest things I ever did. My life was in shambles. For a long time, I've been questioning whether the rules of [00:01:00] documentary I was taught are still relevant. So I'm doing an experiment. I'm throwing out the rulebook. I'm casting this series on Craigslist. I'm paying my subjects and handing them the reins to direct the stories they tell on the show.

Maybe I can figure out some better ways of doing things. 

The way you put that together was brilliant. You are revolutionizing the documentary style by being so transparent. 

Then again, maybe not. 

It's not fair to me. It, it's really very bad. Very, very bad, making me very upset. 

In this four episode series, I'm flipping the script on the power dynamics between documentary makers and subjects to see if I can still make a viable media product.

Can I be honest with you? 

Yeah. 

What makes you think that other people are gonna be interested in hearing that? 

I'm Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative, from Radiotopia Presents. Episode 1 drops January [00:02:00] 16th.

E1: Just a Girl with a Microphone - Transcript

[door opening]

Auditioner 1: Um… I know this is a documentary that you've been working on. Is it for…

Jess: Let me get your mic set up and we'll talk about it.

Jess Shane: If you’re listening to this, I’m guessing you’ve been moved, entertained— even changed— by a well-told true story about someone else’s life.

<music in>

Jess: Okay. So the first thing I need to get you to do before signing…

Michael: No problem

Jess: making sure that you are consenting to being recorded and to me using the recording. 

Michael: Okay. All right. Definitely.

<music out>

Real-life stories— we seem to be really into them right now. No longer does the word ‘documentary’ conjure memories of falling asleep in history class or getting stoned and watching Planet Earth. These days, first-person, true stories make up a good chunk of our media diets.

Jess: Well do you wanna start by, um, introducing yourself? Maybe say your name, your age, and a little bit about yourself.

Auditioner 2: Sure

<duck under>

My name is Jess Shane. I’m an artist and documentary audio producer. I’ve made my career about telling peoples’ stories.

Auditioner 3: Should I be nervous?

Jess: I don't know. I don’t think so. 

Sade: Okay. 

Jess: We're just gonna have a chat. 

Sade: Okay, cool.

Jess: But you know, if you are nervous at any point and you're like, why are you asking this question? Like, you can ask me questions too. 

Sade: Trust me I will— no (laughs)

<jazz drums beat> 

The clips you’re hearing now are from auditions for my latest documentary project… 

Jess: So maybe I'll tell you a little bit more about the process of how this project will work.  We're gonna do auditions. All the people are gonna tell their story, talk about why they wanna be in a documentary, what they hope to get out of it, et cetera. And then after that, I'm gonna be picking four people who will be sort of the lead characters of the documentary. 

Auditioner 4: OK, cool, I’m ready

Jess: Tell me a little bit the bird's eye view synopsis of the story that you'd wanna tell in the documentary… You need to keep it to like two minutes ideally

Auditioner 4: Okay. Two minutes. Um, basically what happened was I was born in ‘94 <duck under>

I posted an ad online and over 200 people applied to take part, but I’m running these auditions to select the best stories to work with.

Auditioner 5: um, I want to tell my story because I feel it is important to really educate people because…  

Michael: I'm here to really just share my experience, strength and hope… so that way it could make a difference in somebody's life…

<music out>

<rhythm shifts to SHT theme>

When I was growing up, it seemed like everybody was talking about the value of stories. 

It was in politics:

Obama: My story is part of the larger American story…  in no other country on earth is my story even possible. 

In advocacy 

It Gets Better Project Ad: The It Gets Better Project: A non-profit created by you -- changing lives worldwide – one story at a time.

In advertising

Shonda Rhimes: and Dove Real Beauty Productions is really about getting those stories told 

In every talk show, on the radio, on TV, 

Oprah:  Speaking your truth…

Ira Glass: …makes it possible for us to imagine what it would be to …

Emmy Awards: …to cultivate a more empathetic and understanding society by revealing intimate truths that when they feel broken and afraid and tired, they are not alone.

<music out>

So I felt called to be a storyteller… but I didn’t want to make ads or non-profit campaigns… I wanted to make documentaries.

And blessed with the many privileges of a middle-class security net, I set my sights on a notoriously unstable career in media. But it was 2016! And when the promise of an approaching golden age in non-fiction narrative podcasting is beckoning, you listen.

It was work that I thought I’d be good at and enjoy— I’m an extrovert, a good listener… and a Gemini with a penchant for asking nosy questions. But maybe most importantly, I saw that audio documentaries could be creative, an art form. 

I’ve often heard making documentaries be compared to being a doula of sorts. A guest just needs to show up with the story they want to bring into the world, then it’s up to the producer, moi, to help them deliver that story in the best way possible.

Auditioner 6: what if I fuck up what if I forget something and I have to go back You know how 

Jess: you're great You're allowed to fuck up You're allowed to go back I'm also here to guide you… 

I also bring a platform.

Auditioner 7: And and what audience are you kind of like catering to I was kind of curious cause I don't know what to omit and like what to uh— 

Jess: Yeah totally… these are great questions. So um we're making this series for our network called Radiotopia Right Which is part of a bigger network called prx.

Auditioner 7: Okay

Jess: And they have a huge listenership. They have some really popular shows that have really massive audiences…

Making documentaries seemed like a kind of social service, a way to empower people society tends to silence, or overlook, or discriminate against by giving them an opportunity to be heard and understood.

Auditioner 7: I think the worst thing is people walk by you like you’re invisible. 

Everyone who has come to my auditions today is expressing some reason, some desire to step into the spotlight. 

Auditioner 8: ‘cause there's a lot of stuff like that I experienced that I feel like Americans either take for granted or don’t know about…

They came with stories they hoped could take apart harmful stereotypes.

Auditioner 6: shed light on something that has been really misconceived for a long time…

Stories that unpack how individuals’ experiences reflect broader systemic issues

Auditioner 9: I am free here. But my pending application for asylum, it's still awaiting and it's really killing us, the waiting.

<music — SHT theme; swirling cello and drums>

But this project is different than any documentary I’ve worked on before. I’m not just looking for surprising or important stories.

I’m actually here interviewing all these people to figure something out for myself about the documentary industry.

I grew up with all of these ideas about documentary storytelling as this ‘noble’ art form. But now I’ve got some questions about what it is we think we’re doing, telling other people’s stories. Questions I can’t ignore anymore. 

Who and what do documentaries serve?

And, what good–if any!– am I actually doing?

This is… SHOCKING HEARTBREAKING TRANSFORMATIVE

<music out>

So why this crisis of faith other than the fact it makes a decent episode hook? 

Well, to tell that story, we’re going to have to got to go back to the beginning— my beginning, the story of my origins as a documentary maker.

<music in>

Documentarians who are listening right now will likely recognize this narrative format as the E structure— which is where you start in the middle at the action point to hook the audience’s interest, then circle back to the chronological start of the story, before looping back to your opening cliffhanger to wrap things up. 

<music out>

It’s common for documentary producers to start out their careers with projects about people already in their lives. If you’re working with someone you know means you have what we in the biz call “access.” Your documentary subject already knows, and probably likes, and ideally trusts you, so they’re then primed to bare their soul to you.

<music in>

My first ever documentary subject was my childhood neighbor, Nicola, a 16-year-old Olympic-bound gymnast on the verge of retiring because of a long-standing hip  injury.

When I asked Nicola if she’d be up for me documenting this transitional time in her life, she said, sure! Actually, she said that having a record of this time sounded really valuable to her. 

<music out>

Nicola: So for me, I think by remembering what I've been through and how much I've accomplished, I'll feel a lot better like going forward 

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

She even thought her story might help other people

Nicola: Girls understanding that we're good the way we are and that we have to do what's good for us and that's the only thing that's gonna make us happy. 

The story of this 16-year-old gymnast about to quit her competitive sport seemed ideal for the Canadian national broadcaster, where I wanted to get my foot in the door. So I wrote up my pitch. 

<music in>

The doc would follow Nicola through this major life transition; it would give listeners a deep understanding of the intensity of her dream of making it to the Olympics…

and then it would have them witness the pain of that dream being ripped away. 

As I imagined it, we’d hear Nicola pick herself back up and begin to build the kind of self-confidence that only comes when you reject other people’s expectations, or some narrative of how your life is supposed to go. 

The whole thing seemed like a powerful metaphor for the growing pains of young adulthood.

<music out>

In our first interview, I asked Nicola to take me back to her early days of learning and falling in love with gymnastics.

Nicola: I remember standing on the podium getting my first gold medal. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. 

She read to me from her old diaries where she chronicled all of her struggles and triumphs 

<music in>

We even tried out this experimental interviewing technique I’d heard about for bringing memories to life. I would make Nicola lie on the floor in a dark room 

Jess: Close your eyes, do it in the present tense, and tell me what happened

Nicola: Ok, so

We recorded sound effects in her basement.

Jess: Oh that’s a great sound… Wait, can you do that one more time? That was so good. 

Interview by interview, I got Nicola to talk to me chronologically through the length of her entire career. The increasingly demanding coaches, the diet culture, the moving goal-posts, and her chronic pain which, year by year, was increasing steadily. 

Nicola: Even though I’m trying my best and sweating like crazy and everything hurts, and my coach still isn’t liking it

Eventually, we got to Nicola’s physical breaking point.

<music out>

Nicola: I thought ok this is it, I can’t handle this pain anymore, it’s not worth it.

When she finally decided to take a week off practice 

Nicola: Suddenly a week turned into 3 months and I was like oh, maybe i’l done. 

And then how good it felt to finally have time to relax and hang out with friends and eat what she wanted for the first time, literally in her teenage life. 

Nicola: We are going for ice cream. 

But when we started to talk about the present— these new big emotions started coming up.

Nicola: ‘Cause I was in denial before. I didn’t want to deal with it.. Now I… now it’s been a year so. 

Nicola was feeling ashamed of quitting. Disappointed that she hadn’t pushed herself harder. Anxious her coaches or teammates were mad at her or would judge her.

It became clear that these interviews were not easy for Nicola. They didn’t seem therapeutic the way I think we both imagined they’d be. 

Nicola: I don’t really want to talk about it anymore…

<music in>

At the same time, Nicola’s uncertainties… her grief, her angst… so relatable… which felt important. Just think about how rarely we get to hear young women thinking on the radio! So I pushed for us to keep going. 

A few months and around 12 hours of recording in, Nicola was tired. It started to feel like whenever I came over for an interview, she was doing me a favor… which was awkward.

But my deadline was coming up and I reassured her, and myself, that it would all be worth it when the documentary came out! Like we talked about when we started, this piece could make a difference for someone listening— another athlete with an injury, another a young person in a difficult moment of transition. What she was doing was making a contribution to society. 

<music out>

<music in: high hats and kick drums>

When the documentary aired, I listened live. I heard Nicola’s passion for the sport, the pain of confronting her limits, and what it means to assert yourself and find your identity as a young adult.

My editor at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation loved what I made. A critic even wrote it up with a rave review. For my first documentary! I was so proud. 

Soon after that, I got offered a full-time job making narrative podcasts. So the end of Nicola’s career pretty much marked the beginning of mine. 

<music out high hats and kick drums>

Over the next several years, I worked on all sorts of narrative podcasts. I worked on on art shows and culture shows, and sports journalism, and true crime... 

I got really good at my job

<music in, waltz>

I prided myself on my ability to find just the right subjects, to coax even the most media-shy among them to speak relatably and with vulnerability. And in the process, I learned some of the basic rules and guidelines of journalism and documentary production. 

Things like… never show someone your questions before an interview. 

And while you can and should check in with a subject to make sure you got all the facts right, you shouldn’t let someone listen to your work before it goes to air. 

You also learn pretty quick that if someone’s volunteering to be in a story they probably have an agenda. It’s better to seek out the right people to talk to yourself.

And do not, under any circumstances, pay your subjects or accept gifts from them.  

<music out>

All these rules are designed to ensure that everyone involved in your story is taking part for the right reasons, as they say. To serve truth, and the public interest. 

During this period of cutting my teeth in the industry, I also tried making a documentary story about myself. This story was about something I really wasn’t proud of: It was about my relationship with my first boyfriend, whose diary I used to secretly read it when he was out of the house and change myself based on what he wrote to try and secure his love for me. 

I know! The bad kind of nosy.

<music in: jazz beat>

What I found was that retelling the story as a kind of memoir a few years later was therapeutic. It helped me process and own something that had previously been hard to talk or even think about.

But then people started reaching out to me about the piece. Not just listeners who liked it or found it relatable or familiar. I’m talking about other professional storytellers.

First I got this email from a successful podcast host with a huge audience who wanted to make a fictional adaptation of my story, which he did— and it was heralded in many major publications as one of the ‘best of episodes of the year’ 

<music out: jazz beat> 

Then there was the filmmaker who emailed me about acquiring the rights. And then more recently, a Hollywood TV producer reached out to ask if I’d like to tell the story for a docu-series she was making about breakups. 

[typing sfx]

TV Producer [read by digital voice]: Dear Jess, I am producing a new documentary series for a major network… The series… will feature couples telling their most shocking, heartbreaking, and transformative breakup stories.

I wanted to reach out after hearing your remarkable story. I found your story to be incredibly relatable and intriguing. And your storytelling is beautifully tender. Please let me know if there's a time we could connect to tell you more about the project and how we might work together to bring this story to life on camera. 

This was well over a year ago now— a time when the docuseries seemed to be newly established as the thing being pushed on every streaming platform. 

Everyone was binging Cheer and Tiger King and Making a Murderer. It seemed like we  couldn’t get enough of true stories of regular people, tightly edited scenes charged with intimacy and immediacy.

I wrote back to the producer and said sure let’s talk.

TV Producer: I was so excited that you were open to having this conversation. And yeah I just wanted to come back and tell you about our project and see if there’s a possibility we could figure out if we could arrange an interview…

Jess: Uhhuh and, and you said you were looking for like, you know, like heartbreaking, shocking, tragic, whatever. Like are you looking for anything average? 

TV Producer: For me, there's no, there's no kind of story that we're trying to find necessarily. We're gonna be looking for a devastating story and a funny story, so it's, I think it's gonna be sort of like a wide gamut but ideally we're looking, you know, for storytellers who will confide in this team of filmmakers 

Aaaaand heads up, this isn’t the real TV producer. It’s a re-enactment, compliments of my wonderful editor Sara Nics. Thank you Sara!

The real TV producer didn’t want to be recorded, but I recorded my end of the call and took diligent notes. So this is how the conversation went: 

Jess: What do you think I would have to get out of this experience? Cuz I've already told the story…?

TV Producer: a bunch of folks we've talked to, they’ve been like, since we talked all of these memories are coming back, I have this new perspective on this… and hopefully at the end of it, everyone feels a little bit better, I hope that this show can offer some sense of catharsis to those who are still digesting their relationship stories,

Jess: How does it work…. Like how, what kind of payment happens? Who owns the story? Who owns the rights?

TV Producer: Yeah. We are really not at that point yet. We’re at the beginning of casting so we don’t have a sense of what thats’ gonna look like yet. At this point, we're really, we're really just interviewing folks. 

Jess: And what I have, like any editorial control or something over the story, because the one that I produced… it was like, I made it, you know?

TV Producer: Um probably not. Nope, you would be involved as an interviewee, and a participant. 

Jess: Okay. I see.

TV Producer: Everything we're doing right now is to sort of, figure out the show and eventually pitch it. So you have, you have all the power basically

<music in>

Jess: like for now, for until, until I give you guys permission to own my story.

TV Producer: Right, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think that's all, like, important to consider as in engaging in this process… as you know, when someone is open to being interviewed, you.. take you take control of a part of their story. And that's something that you know, whether the interviewee is aware of this or not, is they're they're relinquishing a narrative to the wider world that no longer belongs to them in the exact same way.

Jess: Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of scary. 

TV Producer: Mhm. This is just about thinking about whether or not you're interested in telling the story, you know? Whether it's going to do something for you. I would say.

<music out>

Hmmm... Whether telling my story for this show was going to do something for me…That’s what I needed to figure out. 

Even if I needed a huge platform. 

Even if wanted to be interviewed by a hot-shot Hollywood director. 

Even if I thought I had a responsibility to share my story because of its power to serve society in a meaningful way, I was also talking with someone making a show for <BLEEP>, a multi-billion dollar streaming corporation, that you are probably currently subscribed to right now. 

And  – to be honest – the conversation freaked me out… because even though she makes reality TV, and I, the art of audio documentary… I knew her script, her platitudes… to a tee… 

<music in: cello ascending>

Sara and Jess: No, it’s not paid. Yes you can trust me. Imagine the platform! The interview process can be cathartic!

<music out>

Ok confession time.

There’s something I haven’t told you. About that documentary I made about Nicola

Nicola: I listened to and I was like, This is bad… and that was that. 

<music in: carnivalesque, jaunty>

Nicola… hated my documentary.

And after it aired, we didn’t talk for years… 

But I’d just gotten my first media job, so I kept working.  

I’ve gone on to build a portfolio with various networks and production companies and broadcasters; in Canada, in the states, in the UK. I’ve made documentaries about dozens of people's most intimate memories and experiences. 

But when I talked to this TV producer, it was a bit of a reality check. I realized I don’t really buy my shtick about the benefits of documentary storytelling for everyone involved.

… and I’d been lying to myself since the beginning… 

<music out>

Nicola: Hello?

Jess: Hi, how are you 

<duck under>

I wrote to Nicola, half expecting no response, and asked her, would she talk with me about the documentary we made all those years ago?

Nicola: This is, this is gonna be a little brutally honest… but because of the outcome of the doc I honestly felt a little bit of resentment towards you, which is the truth and it’s not something I wanted to feel…

Turns out she had quite a few things to say.  

Nicola: The actual recording process I didn't have much issue with at all— other than that it took a long time…I know how valuable it is to like, look back on an experience and figure out what you did right, what you did wrong… like that's a great thing. 

But this wasn't that, you know. like maybe when I was saying it out loud it was originally but then it was so long that it became something else and then the documentary itself wasn't like if I'd written a reflection out and then I'm like, Okay, this is like for sure what I was thinking because I wrote this myself. 

Jess: Right

Nicola: You know, it was like what someone else thought of a lot of reflection

She thought my documentary was too much about giving up and not enough about persevering.

Nicola: Yeah… I feel like maybe the editors around you at the CBC, were happy to hear your version of the story because they felt like it made them feel better… about themselves to hear that, like, their mediocrity is okay, like not having drive is okay… 

Jess: [laughs]

Nicola: Did it make you feel better about yourself?

Jess: [laughing] Um

Nicola: I don't know why you're laughing.

<music in: cello bow and pluck >

I wanted to talk to Nicola because I hoped that if I could get to the crux of where I’d let her down, I could stop feeling like such a hypocrite. 

Nicola: The thing is… it should have been important to you as a documentary maker, that the person you're making the documentary about, feels like they're being portrayed accurately... Had I been able to hear more preliminary versions, I would have been able to help steer you on the right track, 

Jess: Mm.. What do you think that would have looked like?

Nicola: Maybe showing me like when you started splicing things together, like letting me listen to those sound bites, so I could see where it was going. It also was a little incoherent.

Jess: <laughs>

<music out>

I hear what Nicola is saying. On the other hand, documentarians pride themselves on seeing what our subjects don't… finding the shared human truth inside of one person’s experience 

And if we were just telling the stories our subjects already believed about themselves… well… wouldn’t that just be like working in advertising… or doing PR? 

<music in >

I called Nicola when I started questioning the whole industry…  

Jess: Partially as a result of the process that we did together, like I'm interested in, in taking my work is in this direction that's about actually talking about. The complicatedness of the documentary process.

Nicola: Can I be honest with you? What makes you think that other people are gonna be interested in hearing that?

Jess: Oh my gosh.

Nicola: I’m sorry…

Jess: I mean it’s about, like I feel like, as a subject, I'm interested in the ethics of documentary making.

Nicola: Ok, yeah, that’s interesting... 

<music out>

Judy: This is a very comfortable room, 

Jess: Yeah. This is a psychologist's office. 

Judy: I, I was just about to say…

Jess: I borrowed it. It was more affordable than a recording studio.

Judy: It's. perfect. 

Jess: Yeah

Judy: Yeah.

Alright, you made it! We’re at the part of the E-structure where we’ve caught up to a cliffhanger from the beginning of the episode.

Remember? Here we are back at my auditions in my rented psychologist’s office. 

Jess: Anyways, I'm not a psychologist. I’m just a girl with a microphone.

Judy: Yeah

To reset the scene, picture me in an austere armchair, across from a small couch for auditioners, where I’ve set up 2 microphones and a box of Kleenex.

<music in>

The pillow embroidered with the words “healing is feeling” that was here when I first arrived to set up has been carefully hidden behind the couch. 

But why am I here? And why am I having an existential crisis about my career choice? 

Let me tell you, it’s not because Nicola didn’t like that documentary I made about her. Yeah… that was unfortunate, but to my knowledge, nobody else has despised what I made about them.

My issue is that I did everything right when I made that documentary. I followed the rules! Just like the TV producer who wanted to include me in her docuseries was doing… this is how this documentary industry works. 

Documentary subjects give us makers so much time and trust… and then we makers get to use their words kind of however we want? And then we get paid, and then we get kudos for the media products we made with our subjects’ lives. 

Documentarians and journalists frame ‘telling your story’ as an opportunity, a platform for subjects. … that doesn’t cost them anything but time.

But it’s way more complicated than that. And everyone who works in this industry knows it. 

<music out>

We talk about how storytelling is socially valuable, but what about its social cost? What about its cash value?

What about how subjects’ vulnerability and insights are the basis for today’s booming documentary content marketplace?

And what about how this marketplace shapes how and what stories people hear and come to believe are important… people like you. 

 I don’t think the old rules are working anymore. I want to try to do things differently.

That’s why I posted my online auditions ad. It read: “Does your story need to be told? Tell it in a documentary! Seeking Shocking Heartbreaking Transformative stories for a new series about the documentary industry”

And people responded with every kind of story.

We had horror

<music in>

[horror music cue]

Auditioner 8: My right foot had came off dangling from the skin of my leg 

We had drama

[drama music cue]

Avner: I'm dark immigrant accent, and four white cops. 

Comedy

[comedy music cue]

Auditioner 9: We wouldn't do any porn or anything unless maybe they paid a million dollars. We might.

Auditioner 10: I don't think anyone's paying a million bucks to see me.

Auditioner 9: [laughs]

Fantasy

[fantasy music cue]

Auditioner 7:  And I said, Well, would you be willing to give me the lottery numbers? And he said, Sure.

And a ton of tragedy. 

[tragedy music cue]

Auditioner 5: You know its hard not having support of family, or not feeling understood by people because people don’t understand like how this lady treated me… 

But no matter the genre, my auditioners all wanted to tell their stories for an all too familiar reason… 

Ernesto: it'll give me confidence. And I guess make it concrete in my mind by saying it out loud 

Auditioner 5: finally freeing myself for something from something that like kind of kept me captive

Auditioner 6: I'm kind of thinking about it like as free therapy kind of, so…

<music out >

<music in: cello and bass>

So here’s what I’m doing with this series. Over the next 3 episodes, I’m going to pick four documentary subjects from my cohort of auditioners. And over the next year, I’m going to make a documentary about all of them.

But this time, I’m changing things up.

I want to try out some new rules for documentary production. Rules that go against much of what I was taught about how this production process is supposed to go. 

Rule #1. I’m going to be super straight with my subjects about what documentary really entails: an exchange. So I’m gonna put exchange front and center in how I talk about this project.

Auditioner 3: But why like stories of of people like what what got you into that subject in particular? 

Jess: Well stories of people are like the raw material that this industry runs on… I think we take for granted the idea that telling your story is inherently valuable for the people doing the telling.

Auditioner 10: Yeah that is so true, you never really think about that

Jess: so… How can we make this both transformative for you… and a good story for me, you know what I mean? 

Michael:Yes yes yes, definitely. my words and your connections will, will, will be like a masterpiece.

Which brings me to Rule #2: In the spirit of fair trade, I’m throwing out the textbook journalism commandment to never pay thy subjects. 

I think the ol textbook is overdue for a new edition. 

I was taught a standard that paying subjects is coercive, that it corrupts journalistic integrity. But with so much buzz around the value of “telling your story,” I’m of the mind that the integrity of non-coercion… may… already be corrupted?

So everyone who spends time with me for this series will be paid 20$ per hour.

Auditioner 9: I thought you said 50. Nope, just 20. 

Auditioner 8: when you say Any time we spend together that means like preparing and things like that or just for the story?

Jess: Oh I mean like literally time spent in the same room… Because like you know you could argue that you have prepared your whole life… I don't have the budget for that

Auditioner 10: Just 20 bucks nowadays is like a lot you know? Thank you.

That $20 an hour kinda goes for me too… 

This is a relatively low-budget production, we allocated 20 thousand dollars of the series budget to pay me… but I quit my job to make this series and it’s basically all I’m working on right now... So yeah, I think it’s gonna work out to about 20$/h.

I mean, I’m under no illusions that me getting paid 20$/h— for many hours — to produce my own project…  is the same as my documentary subjects getting paid 20 dollars for every hour they spend working on my project… but it’s the same in terms of hourly breakdown…. and it’s what the budget affords. So that’s how we landed on that number.  

And finally, Rule #3. Normally, anyone who is extremely keen to be in a documentary would raise a red flag. But I’ve set this up precisely to ensure that all my documentary subjects really want this. Hence the open call for participants. 

But not only that. I’m also letting them know that they will set the course for what we cover in the documentary. The stories they share in their auditions will be our map. And I won’t publish the series running what I make by them.

Jess: So if you are selected, we will spend time together over the next six months, figuring out how to tell your story. ….we'd work together to figure out a way to tell your story in a way that feels right… I mean it's up to you  

Ernesto: Okay

The hope is that together, these rules will help me make a documentary where all of us get what we want out of this.

<music out>

<music in >

There are all sorts of guidelines for documentary ethics… people have been critiquing and iterating the way this delicate art should best be practiced, literally since the invention of the camera. But folks, it’s a brand new media landscape out here, and there’s more money and market interest in this art form than ever before. Since a profit-driven-market is defining what kinds of stories are valuable, we need new ethical frameworks to keep up. 

So while I’m far from the only person asking these questions right now... I’m making this series because I still love making and listening to and watching documentaries! But if I want to stay in this industry, I've gotta find a way of working that sits right with me. 

<music out>

<music in: “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“Cmon now, I find

It's nicer to be kind

Than to be cold all the time

To be free to call you mine

And be able to see through it

I’m a fraud, you always knew it

Even if I don’t do it on purpose. 

But that’s just on the surface 

Getting deeper makes me nervous, 

But resisting doesn’t service me anymore.”

From Radiotopia Presents, this was Episode 1 of Shocking, Heartbreaking,  Transformative. A four-part series about what happens to all of us— subjects, documentarians, and audiences— when stories about our lives become products. 

I’m Jess Shane— I wrote and produced this episode, but I really couldn’t have done it without the support and trust of a brilliant team. 

My editor is Sara Nics. Sara also played the TV producer in this episode. 

The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich.

Radiotopia’s managing producer is Yooree Losordo.

Mona Hassan associate produced this episode. Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem, and our music was composed by Eliza Niemi, with additional music by Michelle Macklem. Our episode art is by Justin Broadbent.

Additional thanks to contributing editor Jonna McKone and the anonymous TV producer whose email provided me with the flashy name of this series.

Thanks also to Kelly Anderson, Evan Cartwright, Ivana Dizdar, Jason Fox, Alex Juhasz, Mitra Kaboli, Jordan Lord, Andrew Lund, Eleanor McDowall, Kristine White, Reiko Tahara, Kate Sutherland, Sean Towgood, Chioke I’Anson and the VPM ICA Community Media Center, and many others!

This reporting was also supported by the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists. 

And hopefully… catch you at the next episode. 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“I’m so sorry that I’m fake sometimes

It’s just how I’ve been trained

And I know it doesn’t justify

My opaque little lies”

<”Flip” by Eliza Niemi out>

[ Radiotopia Sonic ID ]

E2: The Grimy Stuff - Transcript

Jess Shane: Before we start, a quick note to say that this show is serialized, so if you haven’t listened to Episode 1, yet, please do so now.

After interviewing 30 strangers from the internet, my team and I had to make some tough choices– select four subjects to feature in my documentary series.

Here’s who we chose:

<music in> 

Ernesto, a Dominican-American fashion model and aspiring designer in his 20s navigating new sobriety. 

Ernesto: it'll give me confidence and reinforcing how i feel about myself

Judy, a white woman in her 70s who became homeless after her beloved husband’s death, just a few months before COVID hit.

Judy: "I'm more than happy to sign this. It's just that, um, every time I sign a document, I like a copy. Oh, yeah" 

Jess, a Hawaiian punk musician in their 20s, who found out they’re adopted and have a biological brother who has long wanted Jess back in his life. 

 Jess:  As soon as I saw documentary on the thing I was just interested I had no idea this was like… paid.

And last but not least, Michael, a middle-aged Black writer and rapper who’s been in and out of prison and is now trying to become a professional public speaker.

Michael: my words and your connections will, will, will be like a masterpiece.

<music out>

I call them all up to let them know they’ve been cast.

<music in> 

Michael: Hello? 

Ernesto: Hello?

Judy: Jess, 

Jess: Hi, Judy. Um, I, We met at the documentary auditions.

Michael: Oh, yes, I remember you.

Jess: I wanted to give you a call because I'd love for you to participate in documentary series if you're still interested. 

Judy: I am.

Ernesto: Sure. 

Jess R: I, I would love to 100%. Yes.

Michael: Yes, definitely. That's wonderful news. You made my day, Jess.

Jess: Oh, you made mine. 

I’m Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative. 

<music out>

Ernesto: My name is Ernesto. I was born and raised in the Bronx I'm 20 years old…

Here’s my first subject at his audition

Ernesto: I work construction and I'm a part-time model.

Of course Ernesto is a model. He’s got defined cheekbones, thick eyebrows, and these dark doe eyes with long lashes. And he carries himself with an aloofness you might expect from a notably beautiful 20-year-old.

Jess: Um well do you want to tell me about how you found my ad and why you decided to respond?

Ernesto: Yeah, I was looking for a side job for construction on Craigslist and I saw an ad there's a lot to read when I read through–

Jess: Thank you

Ernesto: –it seems like a good way to get my foot in the door, get some experience in vocal things… Cuz I get recommended to act a lot um. Even when I model they tell me I should act because I’m expressionate in my face and body language. I’ve studied psychology. 

Jess: you're quite mysterious. I’m getting like a mystique from you.

Ernesto: you know I'm still gaining my comfortability and gaining my trust with 

Jess: of course 

Ernesto: You too… 

<music in> 

As you know, in this series, I’m trying to do documentary differently. I want to try out a collaborative approach to storytelling, in which my subject sets the course and I try to realize their vision. So, I’ve asked Ernesto to tell me what he would like our documentary about him to be about. 

And it turns out he has come with options! Two possible stories!

Ernesto: And modeling comes with a cost… the industry can be uh cutthroat 

 The first sounds like a profile of Ernesto’s experience in the fashion industry.

…Yeah Models are expected not to talk… You have a very good object and I've been referred to as an object and things like that but to me it's part of the game and it's part of the catch of being a model and participating in such an extravagant industry… but it's not easy…

And the second is about his long struggle with drug addiction. 

Ernesto: my addiction was just uh it was a reflection of a problem…12 Uh I was trying to self-medicate you know I was too anxious I didn't feel comfortable with my skin what drugs would help me overcome that 

He tells me about the addiction rehab program he’s been in since he was 16. Four years since he started the program, he’s finally about to complete it. 

Ernesto: It's not a conventional rehab It's actually a therapeutic community 

So… Ernesto is offering two narratives! There’s either Ernesto the young model navigating the cutthroat fashion industry…. or Ernesto, newly sober, restarting his life after addiction treatment.

<music out>

Normally, I have a detailed plan for any story I’m trying to tell. That’s part of the savvy documentarian’s business plan: pitch something with a clear focus, a narrative that you can outline before you even start collecting tape… That way you can make sure you don’t waste your time or your network’s money.  

In practice, that means my interviews are usually pretty directive. Documentarians steer conversations, ask for more details where they want them, guide us to where we think there will be scenes and action. And we’ve made sure any subject we’ve picked can deliver the goods. 

Audrey: That this feels awful to say out loud, but I feel like my reaction to the tape was sort of just like, oh, this seems like a nice person with like, what is seemingly a sad, but kind of like, generic sounding story, you know?

That’s Radiotopia’s Executive [Producer]  Audrey Mardavich, after I played her and the rest of the Radiotopia team some of the tape from my auditions… this was before we’d settled on the four subjects. And her comment may sound harsh if you don’t work in media, but Audrey is doing what everyone in our industry does, deciding on which stories are worth telling… or not… based on what we think the audience wants. 

And as cringy as calling someone’s life story ‘generic,’ let’s be honest, you're listening to this right now because you're hoping to hear something that will entertain you, and maybe teach you something new... you want something that feels fresh, right? And I want to give you that!

Plus, Radiotopia is a selective boutique network, so they’re literally banking on me producing something that’ll turn heads!  

Jess: this is kind of an interesting process for me because.. we're gonna make this documentary about you and your life over the next however many months...Hmm. But I don't know exactly what the documentary is yet, you know?

Ernesto: Me neither

Ok, back to Ernesto… whether we go with the modeling or the addiction story… I am challenging myself not to have a destination in mind here, to see what happens when I encourage my subject to lead the way… despite the dangers of whipping up something… generic…

So when Ernesto invites me to follow him behind the scenes at a high-profile show he’s walking a couple weeks later, I jump at the opportunity. 

Jess: Hi. 

Ernesto: Hey!

Jess: How are you?

Ernesto: Good!  

We meet a few blocks from the venue. It’s a rainy, gray day. And every other person walking by is either carrying a bulky camera or over 6 feet tall…

We take shelter under an awning and scope out the crowd 

 Jess: How are you feeling? How do you normally feel before shows?

Ernesto: Usually pretty nervous... But now I know the nervousness is natural and it's a beautiful part of life to embrace. 

Jess: Well, hopefully this interview isn't, um, amping up the nerves.

Ernesto: No, it's actually, uh, nice to sit with a familiar face before I step into the chaos that is a fashion show.  

Ernesto tells me he’s excited about this show in particular because the designer is Dominican-American, like him. 

Erneto: Um, yeah. It's a very, uh, meaningful show. It's not just about the fashion… He's uplifting an entire community…

As Ernesto finishes his cigarette, we mosey over to the venue. 

Jess: So like what's the money like for a gig like this? I'm just curious. 

Ernesto: Coffee. 

Jess: What? 

Ernesto: Yeah. 

Jess: Really 

Ernesto: for me At least 

Jess: So, but you don't know what the— 

Ernesto: No rate. 

Jess: But you wouldn't be doing it if. There wasn't money… 

Ernesto: I would do it the exposure. 

Jess: For the exposure…

Ernesto: If it was a random brand, I wouldn't. Right. But if it was a well-known person or brand, yeah, 

Jess: Huh. 

Ernesto: It's also an experience, you know?

Jess: Right.

Ernesto: But yeah, I got no rate. 

Jess: Huh. Are the other models getting rates

Ernesto: Some might if they have a big name, yeah. Most models do it for free though.

Ernesto: Yeah. 

Jess: Really? 

Ernesto: Yeah this is New York City, it’s not Paris.

Jess: I mean, that’s still shocking to me. It’s like, you’re working!

We arrive at some unmarked back doors, and Ernesto confidently whisks me past security, into a bustling dressing room.

Ernesto: You know, if I should be doing hair and makeup, why should I start with hair and makeup?

Stylist:  Um, wherever there's an empty chair.

But… there are no empty chairs. It’s packed in here, and loitering around the room are a bunch of other models, all waiting for a space to open up. It looks like the majority of the models here are also Latinx.

Guy: What’s your name bro? 

Ernesto: Ernesto. I ’m from the Bronx. I'm Dominican. And Irish. Yeah. How about you? You look mixed. 

Guy: I’m from Brooklyn. 

Ernesto: Brooklyn What's your ethnicity? 

Guy: Columbian. Honduras. 

Ernesto: The diversity is growing, you know? Yeah. Back in the nineties it was strictly European and you had a couple people of color, but now it's really rolling. 

Jess: Yeah totally.

Ernesto greets a photographer friend and they stand around talking shop for thirty or so minutes. 

The guy eyes my mic and bag of gear. Ernesto introduces me as his documentarian, and the guy’s really impressed. Says he loves documentaries..

Photographer: What brought you guys together? 

Jess: Um, I'm making a documentary. About some cool people. Okay. Including Ernesto. 

Photographer: Wow. 

Ernesto: Yeah. I got lucky. I'm worthy . 

Photographer:  Uh, God's speed. That seems difficult… Is it all Uh, audio? 

Jess: It’s just audio.

Photographer:  Yeah. . Oh, damn. That's harder. 

Jess: But you know what's easier about it? You can edit stuff together, mishmash—

Photographer: And create pace and uhhuh the rhythm is in there. I think I get that.

—While we’ve been talking. It’s gotten more crowded.

Ernesto: This is getting hectic. 

Jess: Maybe there's a chair that's gonna be op—-en right here. Yeah, let's get in there!

Ok great, we’re in business. Ernesto is in the makeup chair and it’s about time. I imagine you’ve had enough of the chatting and waiting around for the action to start? Don’t worry, I’m on it.

<music in> 

Jess: Ernesto, I need you to describe what we're looking at here. So where are we? 

Any decent [audio] documentarian is able to do their work thanks to a trusty bag of tricks. Like getting people to describe things in detail. 

Ernesto: We’re behind the stage at a fashion show. This is a huge show. This is like Balenciaga. You do this show, you’re going to be seen in Europe. A lot.

The secret sauce that amps up pretty much any documentary up is: sound design and scoring. Buckle up for sound designer Michelle Macklem! Take it away Mich— 

Ernesto: All the models are lined up. They’re getting their nails done. Their hair done.  Everything done at the same time. They’re on their phones taking selfies. Then there’s photographers taking photos.The production team’s running around getting the looks together. I put on every look. I’m doing a denim skirt with a big utility jacket. A lot of pockets and mesh. It’s a triple runway. 3 times around. It’s like a zigzag, almost everyone is wearing heels. It’s chaotic. It’s just crazy.

But perhaps the most essential tool is editing. Just like Michelle can build up a vibe from scratch, everything you hear in your average documentary has been curated and constructed from many more hours of recordings, with thousands of invisible, internal cuts. 

<music out>

Let’s go back to Ernesto’s description of what he’s wearing for the runway, the denim skirt and utility jacket. Here’s the original, unedited recording:

Ernesto: I think I’m doing a denim dress, skirt type of thing. With a big um, you know what it’s called, like a utility jacket. A lot of pockets and mesh.

Which became… 

Ernesto: I’m doing a denim skirt with a big utility jacket. A lot of pockets and mesh.

Ernesto’s original take drags a bit. So you don’t get the full force of how epic he looks in person. To create that impact, I snip away all the words I don’t need.

Ernesto 5: [cut] I’m doing a denim… [cut]

Ernesto 5:  … skirt … [cut] 

Ernesto 5: … with a big… [cut]

Ernesto 5: … utility jacket. A lot of pockets and mesh…. [cut]

I also decide on the order of the clips. This could mean taking a reflection from the end of an interview and sticking it at the beginning to help emphasize a certain angle. Sometimes it’s mashing thoughts on an idea from two different interviews together to flesh out an idea, and passing it as though it was spoken in just one go.

I’m not changing crucial information. I’m just… massaging a little.

Like I told Ernesto’s friend, it’s easy to see how editing can change the content and context of what people are talking about. This is part of how story is constructed. And depending on the outlet and imagined audience— News at 5, TLC, chart-topping true crime— those choices… they’re going to look very different. 

But even the greatest sound design and most strategic editing don’t make a great story. We need meat

Ernesto: If you want to hear about the grimy , the grimy stuff, I guess.

Jess: Do I? 

Ernesto: I'm saying that's what you want to hear about more. 

Jess: I mean, I wanna hear about all of it… 

Jess: I guess I had some questions about sort of the challenges of the industry. You've talked about a few things. Like one of them that you talked about was sort of this feeling of objectification or feeling like certain people expect certain 

Ernesto: things from you in the industry. Yeah…. being a model, you are an object that they're disposal of.

They will tell you, show up here tomorrow. And even if you have work, you have to show up or they will look at you like he doesn't want to model. Finding what haircut looks best on me, what walk, and just what. I should give off to the world what is really me? 

Jess: You or what will sell as you? 

ernesto: That's a, a big, uh, controversy in modeling how many of these people are actually just trying to cater to an audience that they know they can make money out of?

And growing up in the Bronx, walking always told a story. A lot of gangs would limp with a certain foot to express what gang they were with and things like that. Sometimes I will tell the designer, which walk do you wanna see? Do you wanna see my walk or do you wanna see the model walk? And if you look at a lot of fashion shows models aren't even allowed to move their neck or express themselves. it feels very limiting at times when you are a self-proclaimed artist

So I don't know if that's the response you were No, I looking for, but I kept it pretty blunt.

Jess: No that's great

But… is it great?  

<music in> 

On the subway home, something about this fashion angle isn’t sitting right with me. 

At my auditions, Ernesto teased all this stuff about the seedy underbelly of a glamorous industry…But the things I found interesting about the story that began emerging in 4 hours at the fashion show were not so much about Ernesto.. but about a structural issue in the diversifying fashion industry… how Ernesto.. and other, particularly racialized models.. are objectified, asked to be a canvas for someone else’s brand.. Or to commodify their culture… for very little money. 

What I hear is a story about how bodies like Ernesto’s are being used by the fashion industry, and at the same time, going unseen.

<music out>

I think it’s rich territory… But… I’m a white woman from Canada… and there are probably many people who’d do a better job than me of understanding all the nuanced racial dynamics at play in this story… Also… the story is bigger than Ernesto, I’d need to talk to a lot more people, and I just don’t have the production budget to take that on… 

The series I sold to Radiotopia features personal stories, not investigative deep dives— which demand a lot more time and resources. And that’s partially because stories of unique individuals facing struggles are easier to produce, easier to deliver on. 

<music in> 

So now, I make an executive decision; a practical and professional one: to stick to the brief of the project I’ve now already mostly been paid for… to keep the stories contained to the personal, and work with the resources I do have access to. 

I’m going to ask Ernesto if we can pivot to his addiction story.  

<music out>

Heads-up, when we’re back from the break, things are gonna get real with Ernesto… and there will be talk about drug use and self-harm. 

(AD BREAK)

I meet Ernesto at his apartment in the Bronx. <entering door>

There are dishes stacked in the sink, overflowing ashtrays that look almost like art sculptures… and piles of leather and lace and denim, 

Ernesto: There's fabric everywhere. Cameras, trinkets. 

The centerpiece of the room is a sewing machine and a rack of structured garments. Turns out Ernesto's a fashion designer, too

Ernesto:  I made this with rabbit fur…

Jess: Oh cool

Ernesto: Just put it on…You ever felt rabbit fur?... Protection. Strength. Yeah. Cool. …Yeah. I think these are your style a little bit.  for a tea party. Zipper. No waistband. 

Jess: Ernesto. These are really gorgeous.

Ernesto: I have a lot of potential. I just need the infrastructure. Yeah. You know what I mean?

He grabs an armful of the clothes off the couch and dumps them on a side table to make room for us. 

And then Ernesto launches into his story.

Ernesto: I knew I was a drug addict before I even touched drugs… Janice Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, all of them. I would watch the documentaries about them. 27s  club heroin addicts. I saw refuge and all these stars and stuff.

My mom and dad divorced when I came, basically… my dad wasn't ready … and it's been like an absence in my life…  it's hard for kids to not have his dad when he wants him, you know, when he needs him… I'd get bullied and called names. I felt like a failure, I couldn't make anyone happy so I was all alone.

Once I smoked weed, I was with people smoking weed together, giggling, and I felt that community, I felt like I belonged. I said, fuck everything else. This is what I want outta life. 

<music in> 

It only took a couple months for me to get into Percocets. Getting high on opiates was like an orgasm that would last hours

you just feel warm all over like you're being hugged it was like the hug I never got from friends and my dad and mom, I was so drawn to it I got addicted.

You know, sometimes the drugs aren't enough. I would get high and not even feel better. I would still feel the sadness I'd start getting on my knees and praying like, I promise I won't steal anymore. Just please, Lord, help me get me clean. Whatever I gotta do, please. Uh, and then you, you get $10 and then you're back buying drugs. And I started doing that a lot and I just felt hopeless and that was it. I'm an addict for life. There's nothing I can do.

Eventually, Ernesto’s family finds out.. just how// bad// things are. 

And they said that’s it. We’re gonna drive straight to an institution  

But as much as he hates being addicted, the treatments just don’t seem very useful

It became like a fun game to go into programs and just mess around.  I’d like… tease the corny white, like old lady psychologist. 

And one time a preacher came. And he gave us business cards. If you ever want to talk about the Lord, uh, gimme a call. And I took the card and I started cutting my wrist with it And I started painting my hand, the blood…

They keep telling addicts just stop, stop getting high. Like, what's your problem? Just be good. But why would they want to be good? Why would they want whatever that means? Good. Why would they want to be in society?

<music out>

As I’m listening, I’m getting these… tingles 

<tingling sfx>

 This happens to me when I transition from just being a good interviewer— nodding, eye contact,  following the script of the questions I’ve prepared— to getting sucked in… really feeling what my interviewee is saying… The tingles are a telltale sign that the power of ‘story’ is working on me… They remind me of why I got into documentary storytelling… the power of empathy… If someone’s words can touch me in this way, I know they’ll have power to affect listeners too…

After a slew of different failed programs, Ernesto winds up in this last treatment program.

Ernesto: I came in, I was all the ghetto I guess.They said, Ernesto, you have an image, a negative image you need to change…. So I let go… and I complied, and I found myself

<music in> 

It’s been four years since of sobriety, Ernesto says. He looks around his apartment, at the fabrics and clothes, the sewing machine...

I'm a brilliant artist. I tell myself that like in affirmation, cuz I don't always think it or feel it. When I get depressed or sad or overwhelmed, I don't have drugs to escape reality. I don’t have bad habits. I don’t have those escape routes

I never thought growing up I'd be an artist or make clothes…

this is me like taking my emotions and letting them flow out…  I hope someone will look at my clothes and see some emotion and some triumph and some hope.

<music out>

Jess: Sorry. Let’s wait for this airplane to go by. 

Jess: How is it going, how is it feeling to talk about all this

Ernesto: Good I don’t know what to say 

Jess: how is this going for you? How are you doing? How is it feeling to talk about all this stuff? 

Ernesto: It's good. I haven't, I feel like I don't know what to say for some of it… Um, you know, I'm used to telling my story to addicts and a room full of addicts, but what happens when I tell it to the world or someone I don't really know? Mm-hmm. , you know?

Jess: How is it different?

Ernesto: I don't know if you relate or if you understand, you know what I mean?... It's easier to tell an addict, man I really want to use, cuz I, I know they'll get it and they can give me words… 

I know you want the engagement, the, wow. It must be tough for him to still feel like an addict even four years apart. Wow.

 Embellishing is, you know, for me being in the industry, embellishing is uh important in entertainment… You know,  I can tell a story in a thousand different ways I want to tell it in the most engaging intriguing funny but when that brings out the most emotion you know and as art So I don't really know what I should sound like how I should project my voice I should be a little deeper And I just if I should talk fast or put on a little accent I don't really know I don't know  

What do you think, listener?

Do you feel for Ernesto? Or do you need something different from him? Do you need him to tell his story in a different way? With a different accent? With more drama? Do you have the tingles?

Does Ernesto’s story feel worth your time and attention?

Or does it seem… generic?

I’m always wondering what you need, my listener, as I wade through moments like these, that rarely make the final cut… 

One of the things I really like about Ernesto is how he seems to get that any story he’s telling me is going to become a product. 

He’s constantly producing himself. In some ways that makes him an ideal partner in this project. 

Jess: I feel like something that I've been struggling with, I guess as an outsider that's trying to help you tell your story, is like trying to get beyond cliche, you know, beyond a surface level narrative of like I had. I became a drug addict. Yeah. Now I'm clean. But I just, what is that?  

Ernesto: Mm-hmm. 

Jess: which is like, you know, you've overcome. Good for you. You know, 

Ernesto: And that's what you're here to teach me or to guide me to. We can talk about my current struggles more. I know I've ramble a lot. 

Jess: Well, I don't want to, I don't 

Ernesto: Well, you're guiding me to it, you know, because if I just rambled and rambled it. It wouldn’t –

Jess: What do you want the documentary to be like about… You know we've recorded a bunch of hours together so far, um,  but like, do you have a sort of vision of what it should be? 

<music in> 

Ernesto: I'm trying not to think about it, cuz I don't know how all audio works and stuff… And also, is my story for other people, or is it an entertaining story? 

It’s been a few hours and I think we’re both running out of steam. 

Ernesto: Like Yeah. In the modeling industry, they try to rape me. I could talk about police brutality. I don't want to do that. Mm-hmm, because that's like selling out and

Jess: I'm not trying to get you to do that. 

Ernesto: Yeah. But that's, it's a route, you know

We're both tired. And I’m kind of at a loss for what to do next. We decide to wrap things up here.

<music out>

Jess: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I mean, I guess… part of the, the struggle that I had because it's like, it's easy to say, oh, I want him to steer the ship. But like he doesn't know how

I’m at my bi-weekly editorial meeting with the Radiotopia team, talking about what I’ve recorded so far with Ernesto, and how I’m feeling about this process. 

Jess: As a professional storyteller you're like trying to hold, uh, like empathy and knowledge of market functionality at the same time. 

It feels messy. The Radiotopia team is trying to help out. 

Yooree: who is the savvy one here? Like, you know, Jess the professional or Ernesto the model where he's very comfortable with the idea of being… like clay to be molded?  

That’s Managing Producer Yooree Losordo. 

Yooree: and he's the one who's like jaded maybe even and is like no this is the system hmm 

And here’s Audrey again, Radiotopia’s Executive Producer. 

Audrey: the question you're dancing around is yes,  documentaries are supposed to be impactful, but like, they're also entertainment… You know, like ultimately, like now they're being sold, right? That's how people sell them is like, it's infotainment or whatever, you know? And so how do you do both?

It’s a great question… and no one on the call seems to have an answer. The Zoom meeting screen is just a grid of silent nods. 

Audrey:  Hmm… It’s tricky…

Jess:…Everyone's bobbing,

A few weeks later, I’m still puzzling over what to do with all that tape from Ernesto… 

<music in> 

It’s clear to me now that within the scope of my project, my plan to let Ernesto direct his own documentary about himself was always doomed to fail. Because I have a product to deliver…

But as I listen back to the tape, I start to hear a third story angle… it’s something Ernesto didn’t pitch to me directly, but that he’s been showing and telling me.

Jess: Speaking of which I, do you have Venmo? Are you in like Zelle? Zelle? I have Zelle cause I owe you some money right now too. 

Ernesto: Yeah, I could really use some money right now too. 

For years now, one of Ernesto’s main jobs has been being a model, like he said: it’s being a professional object. And now, he’s part of my project, where he’s essentially… a professional subject. 

Jess: Okay. Why don't I send…

Ernesto: I only have 700, rent’s 1200. 

Jess: So we've spent about seven hours together

7 hours is 140$. And what Ernesto needs is 500$ to pay rent. Object or subject, “the transformative power of storytelling or not…” this gig simply isn’t paying enough to make a difference in Ernesto’s life. And usually this sort of “professional subject” opportunity doesn’t pay at all. Just like the modeling gigs.

Ernesto: Um, so I really appreciate if you sent me like, I don't— and that's my pride and shyness. You know, I don't have it in me to say I'm doing it for this much. Like, I'll do it for free. I'll never ask you. 

By necessity, Ernesto has become an expert at giving people what they want to see and hear… 

Ernesto: Okay. [singing] Cash rules everything around me. Queen, get the money. Dollar. Dollar bill yo…

<music out>

That pressure to tell a story that seems exceptional, not generic… it forces us to take real lives, to take Ernesto’s life, and to ascribe value to how well he can narrate his most traumatic experiences, so that we can experience empathy… but empathy to what end?

And for whose benefit? 

Whose bottom line? 

<music in> 

I could tell a thousand stories about Ernesto, using all my tricks of the trade. I could even have him tell the rape or the police brutality stories that he offered up. But the last thing I want to do is turn Ernesto’s pain into your pleasure. 

And I’m beginning to think I’ve designed this whole project around a flawed premise… How can I make good on my commitment to Radiotopia now? 

… And how does it change how I need to work with my other three subjects? 

<music out>

At least, if all else fails, we’re all getting paid. 

Ernesto: [singing over the radio]: “A rich man goes to college

And a poor man goes to work

A drunkard wants another drink of wine

And a politician wants a vote

I don't want much of nothin' at all

But I will take another toke” 

<music in, “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“Cmon now, I find

It's nicer to be kind

Than to be cold all the time

To be free to call you mine

And be able to see through it

I’m a fraud, you always knew it

Even if I don’t do it on purpose. 

But that’s just on the surface 

Getting deeper makes me nervous, 

But resisting doesn’t service me anymore.”

From Radiotopia Presents, this was Episode 2 of Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative. A series about what happens to all of us— subjects, documentarians, and audiences— when stories about our lives become products. 

I’m Jess Shane— I wrote and produced this episode with help from a bunch of people: My editor is Sara Nics. 

The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich.

Radiotopia’s managing producer is Yooree Losordo.

 Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem, and our music was composed by Eliza Niemi, with additional music by Michelle Macklem. Mona Hassan provided production support. Our episode art is by Justin Broadbent.

Thanks also to Kalli Anderson, Jason Fox, Chioke I’Anson, Jordan Lord, Mitra Kaboli, Eleanor McDowall, and Pooja Rangan. I also want to shout out Pooja’s amazing book, Immediations, which blew my mind and informed much of the thinking behind this episode and this series as a whole. I’ll drop a link in the show notes. 

This reporting was also supported by the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“I’m so sorry that I’m fake sometimes

It’s just how I’ve been trained 

And I know it doesn’t justify

My opaque little lies”

<music out>

[ Radiotopia Sonic ID ]

E3: Win-Win— Transcript

Jess Shane: Hey! A quick note that this show is serialized, so make sure to listen to the episodes in order.

It’s 8am on a blustery morning in early September, and I’m waiting by the doors of a church. The doors swing open, and there’s Judy… she’s a white woman in her early seventies, with gray wavy hair and kind eyes. 

<music in>

Jess: Hi, Judy. 

Judy: Hey! You early bird! Let me get everything out. 

Jess: Yeah

Judy lives in this church. It doubles as a shelter, but residents have to clear all their things out at 8am every day, so Judy makes several trips back inside to remove 7 large reusable shopping bags, all packed to the brim. Then, the church doors close and Judy uses a car window as a mirror to brush out her hair.. 

Judy: These are the little things that when you don't have… You learn to make adjustments

Judy is the next documentary subject I’ve got lined up. And since she has to be out of the shelter all day, We’ve planned to head over to a nearby diner to talk. I offer to carry some of her bags.

Jess: [huffing and puffing] Oh my God.

Judy: Is that alright or is that too much? 

Jess: No, no, no. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm just, I know. I'm just amazed that they're so heavy. Are yours that heavy?

<music out>

Judy’s life has been particularly chaotic since we first met… so while I’ve now almost finished gathering tape with Ernesto, and have already scheduled preliminary interviews with two other subjects, Judy has been difficult to coordinate with… .

Jess: So Judy, I have a question for you.

Judy: Yeah.

Jess: We met because I'm making this series, right? Do you still wanna do the series? I know that you're dealing with a ton of stuff. It's just like on my end, if you don't want to be involved, then I just need to know sooner. 

Judy: Well, right now I'm open-minded. I'm not saying one way or the other, but I want to contribute to your goal. It's just that I'm at, completely at the mercy of others right now.

<music in>

Shortly after we decided to work together, a lega l emergency came up in Judy’s life. An emergency that led her to consider pulling out of my project altogether. 

Part of why Judy and I are meeting today is so that I can introduce her to a lawyer who I think may be able to help out. 

As we head into the meeting, I turn off my recorder. ‘Cause today, getting Judy’s story on tape just isn’t my priority

~~

I’m Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

<music out>

After my auditions, I book preliminary interviews with all my subjects. I record with Ernesto first. 

Soon after that, I meet up with Michael, a middle-aged Black writer and rapper, recently out of prison. Michael is super tall— 6’6, with glasses, a close-cropped fade, and a slow grace to his movements that’s surprising for his size. 

Michael: ... I joined the gang in this park. Um, it was right there where that, where that seat is at… I'm like a, a, a hood legend in, in this park, Bristol park yeah…

Michael and I decide on having our first meeting in his childhood neighborhood of Brownsville in Brooklyn, because, he says, this is where his story began. 

Michael:. it just a typical hood story. Like, um, person comes from a bad neighborhood, and, uh, bad things happen….but a lot of the stories end tragically too, and my story didn't end tragically. So, so now sky's the limit for me, you know…

Michael is a writer, and has a lot of ideas about what makes a good story. He recently completed a workshop that teaches formerly incarcerated people about public speaking. He shares some structural suggestions he was taught that might apply to our documentary about him.

Michael: They wanted us to keep it short and they wanted to tell us how to start it in the beginning. How, how to do the, the middle part, you know, to keep the people in suspense… So, so that way people would be interested in your story… 

A week after meeting Michael, I sit down with Jess, a Hawaiian punk musician in their early 20s who learned they’re adopted right before moving here earlier this year. Heavily tattooed with a bunch of facial piercings, Jess’s aesthetic is tough, but underneath, they’re obviously a softie.

Jess R: honestly I feel like my head space has been pretty awful these past couple of days. But I feel like… sometimes talking helps me… 

In our first interview, Jess is quick to open up with some of the emotional upheaval of being newly connected with their bio family who, until recently, they didn’t even know existed.

Jess: I've been wanting siblings for so long. And to find out I have like exactly what I wanted. Like a younger one and an older one. Um, I felt very.. pressured to like have this perfect relationship with them cuz like it's everything I wanted. I can't fuck it up… 

Like with Ernesto, in my first interviews, I’m trying to get to know Michael and Jess, to narrow in on what their stories might be. 

I wrap up our conversations with assurances I’ll circle back soon…

I reach out to Judy a few different times to try to book an interview… but I don’t hear back. But I don’t want to give up on her. Because out of everyone I met, Judy is the person I’ve been most excited to talk to. 

<music in>

When Judy showed up to her audition, I started with my standard spiel about my project. 

Jess: —interested in talking to people who have interesting life experience that they want to share for some reason. Mm-hmm. and who are interested in having conversations about what it means to share that experience… why are you laughing?

Judy: That, that's, that's kind of loaded. 

I’d done this spiel 30 times by this point… but Judy was the only person to press me about the media criticism portion of my project.

Judy: the media has a tremendous impact on people's lives… I don't want to stray from myself, because you want my story, but—

Jess: No but that is part of it. 

Judy: I'm just citing an example of something that happened a couple of days ago. There was a man (duck under)

She described an article she’d read that week in the New York Post. It was about an unhoused man who built a shelter for himself on the Manhattan Bridge. She said it was this story that alerted the city of the man’s presence which then prompted a violent eviction. 

Sure. They were trying to get readers to read about the unusual aspect of this man's life, but did they think this thing through? I thought it was reckl ess and irresponsible.

Judy’s understanding of the stakes of my project was exciting to me. 

  Judy: I actually wanted to contact the reporter and confront him on this. 

I liked her outspokenness… Our shared interests… 

Judy: Uh, I was always interested in the arts. I majored in art and art history

Jess: Me too

On some level, it comforted me that we shared a class background… 

Judy: I had the blessing of growing up with privilege. 

And it seemed like the recognition was mutual… 

Jess: We're gonna get along. 

Judy: Yeah.

Jess: Yeah.

<music out>

When Judy told me about her husband Richard, and how she ended up living in a shelter, my heart especially went out to her.

Judy: when Richard, got sick, he couldn't work. We fell behind in the rent. We were taken to housing court for non-payment. And during the litigation process in the housing, court, uh, Richard died leaving me in a state of complete panic.

And unlike Ernesto… or Michael and Jess for that matter… Judy seemed to know exactly what she wanted out of participating in this series.

Jess: understandably, I think you have sort of distrust of the media…  

Judy: Yeah…

Jess: But, you know… I'm part of the media, 

Judy: Right. 

Do you, is there anything you wanna get clear with me?

Judy: I'll tell you the truth… my aspiration from my involvement in this project of yours… my goal is to get my life back on track. To become normal again, not to be considered unstably housed or homeless. I would like to contribute something to society… to share with the audience the fact that homelessness can happen to anybody. . And maybe somebody listening might give a chance. 

Jess: Yeah.

Judy: You never know… 

<music in>

When I cast Judy, she seemed excited, grateful even. But I felt like the lucky one. Her big personality and critical thinking seemed like just the right ingredients for my documentary project. 

But getting back in touch with her was another story.  

Voicemail: I am sorry. The person you are trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet. Please try your call again later. Goodbye.

Her phone would ring but never connect

For weeks, the only texts I got from her said: “I’ll call you back”... but I wouldn’t get a call…

Then I got this massive, frantic novel of a text message, mostly in all caps. 

… it was about an impending eviction, a court case, an evil landlord, and a negligent lawyer. 

<music out>

It was actually pretty hard to understand, so I followed up with a phone call.  

Judy: Jess, 

Jess: Hi, Judy.

Judy: Oh boy. What a day. I sent you a text message… I don’t know if you got a chance to look at it

Judy explained that a court case about her old apartment got postponed in the Covid moratorium on evictions. Judy might be able to move back into the apartment… if she can cover the unpaid rent from the past three years.

Judy: The landlord’s attorney calculated that the rental arrear debt is $58,000. 

Jess: Oh my God, 

Judy: mm-hmm. 

She tells me that a big part of why she needs to get back into that specific apartment is because her landlord has agreed to accept something called a rental assistance voucher. Theoretically this voucher could pay Judy’s rent in that apartment for the rest of her life. 

<music in>

From the sounds of it, Judy has six weeks to raise almost 60K, but if she pulls it off…  it’s possible she’ll be able to move back into her old apartment. 

Judy: I feel like I'm in a six-ring circus. 

…Some high stakes for my Judy documentary! 

Judy: It’s a very dirty business

Jess: This is like a classic, villainization of homelessness, which is really a state-created problem.

Judy: You’re so correct. You’re so correct. 

There’s just one hitch… I don’t know anything about housing law or evictions or rent vouchers...

I reach out to my lawyer friend Alex. 

Alex: Hey hey! 

Jess: Hello!

She works on policy to decriminalize homelessness. 

<music out>

Jess: Yeah, so Judy…

Alex: Have you, like, I know that Judy sent you that text message, but have you heard anything else from her?

I tell Alex about Judy’s situation and Alex has a lot of questions. Like, why is Judy living in a shelter at all when her eviction case is still active?

Alex asks me… to ask Judy… if she’d like Alex to look into her case. Alex thinks that she might be able to offer some support to Judy’s attorney, as well as to offer Judy some clarity about the actions her attorney has (or hasn’t) been taking. 

I try to follow up with Judy about scheduling a time to talk in person.I figure when we finally meet, I can tell her about Alex’s offer. 

Voicemail: I am sorry. The person you are trying w to— 

But another week of missed calls goes by. 

And when Judy finally writes back…  she says that because of how vulnerable she is right now, she can’t commit to anything that isn’t directly contributing to solving her legal problems. Including being part of my documentary.

My heart sinks. 

I feel conflicted. I understand where she's coming from and I don’t want to put any more on her plate. At the same time, I think her situation could be a valuable setup to meaningfully explore how people can fall through the holes in the social safety net and wind up unhoused. Plus… for more than a month now, I’ve been banking on working with Judy on  this series… and I don’t have a back up plan. 

…Then I read Judy’s text again: “I can’t commit to anything that isn’t directly contributing to solving my legal problems”

<music in>

In a sense, it's not actually a ‘no.’ Is it... an invitation? Maybe even… a challenge? 

Maybe this is the opportunity I’ve been looking for, for a fair documentary exchange... 

Judy: maybe someone listening might give me a chance… you never know.

I learned with Ernesto that planning to let a documentary subject lead comes with all kinds of challenges. But this is something different. Judy seems to be proposing that she’ll let me document her, and in exchange, I’ll use my skills, platform, and privilege to help her improve her circumstances… 

In some ways, this setup sounds more fair and more transparent than the usual documentary arrangement— the give and take is much clearer and more direct than some vague notion of the “power and promise of storytelling.” 

<music out>

I text Judy back and I tell her about my friend Alex. How I think Alex might be able to help. I ask Judy if we can all meet up.

For once, Judy texts back in seconds. “Yes. Thank you,” she writes, “I’m a strong believer in win-win situations.” 

[jess grunting]

And that’s how I find myself carrying Judy’s shockingly heavy bags to a legal meeting on a windy September morning…

Holed up in a bustling diner, Alex patiently explains what she’s learned from Judy’s attorney. I didn’t record this meeting but I’m gonna give you a recap:

So, we start by talking about that rental assistance voucher that Judy already told me about. The one that could theoretically pay her future rent in her old apartment. Getting set up for that voucher is worth doing ASAP, because it’s a concrete action that will give Judy’s attorney a good argument for postponing her upcoming eviction.  And according to Alex, this should be pretty straight-forward. The biggest step is that Judy will have to move out of the church-run shelter where she’s been living for years now, and into a different city-run shelter. 

<music in>

At first, Judy isn’t interested in moving. She doubts that any new shelter will be better than her current situation, or even that moving will actually get her closer to securing that voucher. 

But Alex is one step ahead. She gets Judy’s case worker for back up. Not only does he confirm what Alex has said, but he also discovers in real time, that through some bureaucratic loophole, Judy’s voucher application has already gone through and been approved early. She’ll still have to move shelters in order to ensure that the application stays active, but otherwise, this voucher is in the bag.

The case worker also lets us know that that because Judy is a senior, she'll have priority getting a single room, and likely will be able to move within the week. 

Two coffee refills later, Judy has done a 180 on the idea of changing shelters, and the elusive rent voucher is finally within reach.

<music out>

Judy: This opens up a whole universe to me of options 

Judy and I now sit on a bench in a little parkette between two wide streets. She’s absolutely elated.

Judy: On this very day, the deadline for me to hand over $60,000 to my landlord in Brooklyn, which I had sleepless nights over turned out that I was awarded the voucher, to rental assistance programs.

But this isn’t… quite right… The truth is that her decision to move only ensures she qualifies for the voucher… it won’t kick in until the rent debt has been paid, and the apartment’s passed a safety inspection.

But it’s a step in the right direction, and for the moment… the future looks brighter.  

<music in>

Jess: So Judy, what do you wanna do now? 

Judy: We're gonna celebrate, this is a major, major event, and just enjoy the fact that we're alive. 

It’s amazing to see Judy like this, and to know that just by connecting her with the right resource, I was a small part of helping her get here. 

And the cherry on top? Judy is back on board with the documentary. 

Judy: Well, the questions that you asked me and I responded to, um, will that material be, um, helpful to your project? 

Jess: what we can do is try to tell the story of someone like you in this situation who's trying to get housing. 

Judy: Sure. 

Jess: Try to make this. A little bit more transparent for someone who might be listening.

Judy: Yeah… 

The possibility of supporting Judy… and gathering tape for my series along the way— while illuminating the complex nature of homelessness as per Judy’s goals… it somehow feels clear, feels right. I’m a little elated, too, to be honest. Then Judy rifles in her bag and pulls out a packaged brownie. 

Judy: I want you to have the sweetheart. This is a delicious treat. Oh, it looks so good. 

Jess: But Judy

Judy: I insist. I insist. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Jess: Can we share it? You're my honored guest. This is a big brownie. Please. There's enough for both of us.

Judy:  So you'll eat it on two separate occasions. 

Jess: Oh, come on. 

Judy: Yes, we have put everything in the bag.

Jess: I really don't wanna take this from you. 

Judy: I would feel terrible if you went away and you didn't take it. 

Jess: Oh, but actually, Judy, remember, I don't know, if you know this, but when we talked originally about this documentary… I have a budget to pay you for any time you spend with me. So I actually owe you $40. 

Judy: What? 

Jess: Yes. $20 an hour. 

Judy: Go away. Go away.

Judy: It's my privilege to spend time with you. My goodness

Jess: So we'll take this As long as you take that 

Win-win situation. 

Judy and I agree to keep in touch about our respective projects. 

<music out>

Jess: Um, Judy, would you mind if I try recording some of this meeting for the podcast? 

Judy: Not at all…

<music in>

It’s late September now, and Judy and I are meeting near the city-run shelter she’s just moved into. The new shelter is a big step up from the old one. I’m disappointed to learn it's not quite the single room she was promised… the walls are more like cubicle dividers so there’s no privacy… it’s loud and crowded, with police cars always parked outside, but for the first time in years, Judy doesn’t have to be outside all day, rain or shine, carrying heavy bags of stuff around.

Judy: You know, Jess, I, I reflect back on this whole experience. And I think to myself, I lived through that… during the whole duration of the pandemic—

Jess: Yeah. I don't know how you—

Judy: when there was, when there was nowhere to go, there was signs throughout the whole city that said, stay home, stay safe. There was an assumption that everybody had a home… See that's something that's interesting journalistically speaking.

And Judy seems overall energized by the change, which makes me feel energized too. 

<music out>

But there’s still so much to be done before we can get the voucher activated–we’ve gotta raise close to $60,000 and make sure the apartment will pass a health and safety inspection– and we only have a few months. 

But Alex and I have made a plan. She’s going to collaborate with Judy’s attorney on legal strategy and fundraising, and I’m gonna work with Judy on getting her apartment ready for inspection

Since the meeting with Alex, Judy has clarified why she’s currently homeless even though she was never actually evicted. 

When her husband Richard was going through cancer treatment, the couple was forced to move into a hotel, because in Richard’s state, he could no longer access their third-floor home. To save money, the couple got rid of two storage units, and put all the contents into the apartment, which they weren’t using anyhow. So now the place is too full of stuff to live in.  

Judy’s worried about how hard it’ll be to clear everything out.  

Jess: Do you think that we could get into the apartment and just spend two days and go through the stuff?

Judy: Just to get in there, uh, there's no room. I put everything in the front, the place is packed.

Jess: We can open the door and take out the stuff by the door, we can do a bit by bit. 

Judy: There's no order whatsoever, right? None, and it will take literally the longest period of time for me to sort things out. 

But we don't have the longest period of time before the eviction. 

Jess: So right now,you have two weeks. I know that's not enough time. 

Judy: Of course it's not enough time. 

Jess: But it's not… no time

Judy: We haven’t figured out how to move the stuff, who is gonna pay for it. 

Like any good producer, for every problem Judy raises, I have a solution.

Jess: Like we could, we could go today. You know, we could start. 

Judy: It's not that simple… Things are just piled up one on top of the other with no… in total disorder. 

Jess:  I happen to be extremely good at making order out of disorder 

Judy: Well…

<music in>

In the weeks that follow, we have a lot of meetings in a lot of different coffee shops

Jess: Do you want to talk about a sort of a strategy to get some of the most precious things or

Judy: Well… 

I still believe the best use of our time together is getting Judy’s apartment in order, and recovering her essential possessions for safekeeping, but Judy wants to do more research about her rights around the eviction.

Judy: Let me ask you something. There is a phone number. It's called New York City Um, court answers or things of that, can we look that up and see if somebody answers the phone?

Jess: Sure.

We wait on hold, get passed between departments for 30 minutes or so,

Helpline: Good afternoon. Housing Court answers. Can I get your name? 

Judy: My name is Judy

It’s a dead end.

<music out>

I take it as an opportunity to refocus… Judy not so much…

Judy: I'd like to brainstorm with you what ideas we would present to the housing court judge… and anything we can do to outline arguments mm-hmm. ,

Jess: sure. I mean, I'm happy to do that [duck]

And sometimes Judy’s plans seem a little… unrealistic, particularly when it comes to the back rent she owes. 

Judy: Make the amount instead of 60, make it like 20 and let him allow me to stay there for a few months, like four, four or five months and then I'll move. It'll be a win-win situation 

This is not lining up with the plan I made with Alex! But maybe Judy just needs more time to steel herself for some really big changes… 

At the same time, there are other parts of this series I’m supposed to be working on.

Jess R: Hey Jess… I would love to do a follow up interview whenever you're free and have the time to.

Michael and Jess are reaching out every so often about our next interviews…

Michael: Give me a call when you get this message. Talk to you soon. Bye

In October, I slow pedal them… I explain that I’m working with a small team, that things with the project are hectic, and I’m still getting my ducks in a row. And it’s true. I’m wrapping up recording with Ernesto, wrestling with his tape… but my work shadowing and researching for Judy takes up the brunt of my time. 

By November, things are still on the backburner with Michael and Jess… and I’ve legitimately started feeling flaky… I haven’t “circled back” as I promised months ago. And though I’ve requested that they “stay tuned,” the reality is that between Ernesto and the deep Judy rabbit hole I’ve continued to tumble down, I just don’t have a lot of time. 

<music in>

In November, Judy and I meet again, this time at a pizza shop. 

For now, Judy’s attorney has managed to get another short extension of her eviction. 

Between Kafkaesque phone calls, and brainstorming hail mary negotiation strategies, Judy and I are coming to care about each other. 

<music out>

Jess: I'm gonna go get us a snack. Okay? 

Judy: Stay with me. Stay with me. 

Jess: Stay with you. You want me to get you a snack? 

Judy: Not right now. I'm not hungry at all. 

Jess: Okay. 

Judy: I'm more interested in you sharing this experience with me. Very, very valuable. I want you to be with me.

<music in>

I get to know the daily drama at the shelter. 

Judy: She’s like “Oh hell, Somebody's in the bathroom”... “Yeah, I'm in the bathroom, that's what it's for”

About her late husband…

Judy: I will declare this that Richard is and was my soulmate. 

She begins to open up

Judy: I've already lost my husband. So, you know, tangible things give me some comfort. 

I come to understand that this is the crux of her fear of losing the apartment

Judy: I sort of mentally shut down somewhat //  When I get very, when I get very overwhelmed. 

Which clarifies why Judy sometimes disappears for weeks on end. 

Judy: I know shutting down is not where it’s at

Jess: Yeah… and you're dealing with so much overwhelm all the time. 

Judy: Yeah, I am. Yeah

For better or worse, our relationship is not like one I’ve ever had with a documentary subject... and maybe because of how invested I’ve become in a certain outcome for Judy. Not only because I’ve come to care about her, but because I’ve started to feel like the success of my series is now tied up with my ability to improve Judy’s life circumstances. Our relationship is a rollercoaster. Moments of tenderness

Judy: All right, love. 

Jess: Okay.

Judy: I love you. 

Jess: I love you. I’ll see you… 

And moments of transaction

Jess: I need to pay you from our session today. Oh yes. That's in my budget. 

There are supposedly-urgent 3am voicemails

Judy: Hello, Jess. Jess. It’s Judy. Um, I need to talk to you… I’d like to be able to connect with you before the morning

And one day in January, I get a different sort of wake up call.

Jess Rosa VM: I decided last minute to take a break and go home for a couple of months. I think my mental health really needed it… Um, but yeah, just to like give you a heads up, I am back home. Uh, at least till April, or maybe March, I'm not too sure. 

It’s a voicenote from Jess, who I was last in touch with months ago now.

I am well aware that I have zero right to bat an eye about Jess’ new plans to be out of state for the remainder of my production schedule… but the change does mean that they’re out of the series. And I realize that if I don't get a move on, I might lose Michael, too.

<music out>

AD BREAK

Jess: Hey! How are you doing? 

Michael: Been so long! 

After months of dragging my feet, I finally book a second interview with Michael. 

Jess: All right, so interview number two. 

Michael: Two. Yep. Um

This time, we talk for several hours, and the conversation spans his friendships

Michael: they to call me hat master cause I to wear a lot of different hats

Family

Michael: And my grandmother, she used to go to a lot of those power, the  Black Power seminars all over the world. 

The time he spent in prison.

Michael: You have to rehabilitate yourself. Cause they not gonna really rehabilitate you

More about his public speaking class, 

Michael: When I do my public speaking, . I'm changing their life and I'm freeing myself at the same time too.

The book he’s writing

Michael: The name of the book is called a conversation is the motivation to change the situation… Yeah it’s almost finished. I’ve got, like, 3 more chapters to go.

It’s an intimate conversation. Michael is generous, sharing his history and feelings. 

Jess: How did this interview go for you? 

Michael: Oh.. Always a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. It's always good. You're very good moderator, so

Jess: oh, thanks.

Michael: Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Jess… it is like we knew each other for years.

Jess: Yeah… I feel really lucky that I get to talk to you.

Michael: Thank you. Thank you.

<music in>

Leaving the recording space, Michael has a bounce in his step. Meanwhile, I am exhausted. It’s been two hours of mostly him talking, but I get the impression he could have kept going…  

Michael: You chose me out of, out of a lot of people and that. It's like special to me… and I trust you, you trust me, you know… we could be ourselves around each other, you know? So it is a win-win situation all around.

Win-win. That expression again. 

Michael: I don't want you to just think that it have to be just business. It could, you know, be personal too… you know, we could go out to eat, go to the movies… um, I could get to learn some things about you, just like, you know, things about me I could get to know.

Jess: Well, if you ever have questions for me and things you want to talk to me about, you can ask me. 

Michael: Okay. Definitely. Thank you. 

Jess: If you want

<music out>

In the week following our interview, Michael leaves me a voicemail. 

Michael:  Hi Jess. This is Michael… I took the day off today… call me back when you get a chance and we'll talk. Alright. I miss you too. Talk to you soon. Bye-Bye.

I take this to mean that he wants to do another interview soon. In response, I shoot him a text to tell him I’ll let him when I’m ready to schedule our next meeting. 

Then a few days later, I hear from Michael again. A text message, with a photo of him looking dapper in an all white suit with a fur collar and fuzzy white fedora. It’s an amazing outfit, and I remember how much he takes pride in his clothing, so I heart it and carry on with my day. 

But then Michael starts sending more texts… like “I hope to see you soon. We need to hang out one day and do something fun let me know when your free,” or another “i miss you Jess,” and then more snapshots— selfies, outfit pics— and then texts suggesting that I send him some photos of myself… and now something feels really off. 

After some deliberation, I text Michael back saying that while I love his fashion sense, sending photos of myself isn’t something I’m comfortable with. 

Michael responds immediately. 

He says “I'm sorry I'm just a picture friendly person that's all. Maybe you thought I was flirting with u. If I made u feel that way I'm sorry. I'm not that type but I thought we were friends… even you suggested that we go skating one day but now I guess your point of view has changed. So now we will just keep our relationship strictly business. Also, by the way I wasn't paid for the 2nd interview that we did together.”

I wrack my brain for the skating thing… at first, I don’t even remember what he’s talking about… and then I listen back through the tape from our first interview and it all comes back…

<music in>

Michael: Ever since I was a kid, my female cousins used to take me roller skating… 

During our first interview, Michael had shared with me that he likes to rollerskate to decompress. Picturing him relaxing on the rink was so charming, that while brainstorming  next steps for our work together, I suggested he could show me where he skates sometime… 

Jess: Maybe we could go roller blade. Okay.

Michael: Yeah, definitely roller blade. 

Jess: Yeah, or you could do that and I can watch… I'm really bad at that [giggling]

Michael: Oh, okay.  Yeah, I'll help you with that. Okay. Yeah. Even if I gotta hold your hand and make sure you don't fall.

I was musing that it could make some nice scene tape, theoretically… but I conveniently chose to overlook that Michael might have interpreted it beyond the bounds of our documentary-induced relationship. 

<music out>

I think back to the interviews and phone calls I’ve had with Michael over the course of this project…

Michael: We gotta do that roller skating soon too. Yeah, I've been dying to do that.

Jess: Yeah 

Instead of studios, I try to interview people  in places where I know they’re gonna feel at ease. I say, “let’s meet at your place… let’s grab a bite, let’s go rollerskating.”

Michael: Yeah, cause I love cooking. Yeah… Yeah. I got oxtails. I got,

Jess: Ooh, yum.

Michael: Yeah. You like that? Oh, okay man. That's good. Yeah. Oxtails is well good. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I might cook some one day and, and bring you some.

Jess: I love that. 

It’s not a coincidence that someone feeling at ease is the surest way to get natural tape… 

But it’s not just about the setting….

Jess: We can also just like turn off the recorder and just hang out for a bit… I have to leave in like 40 mins

It’s part of my job to be friendly. To be empathetic, to smile often, and laugh easily. I want my subjects to be totally themselves.. Which is why audio producers often boast that the small size of our equipment and teams helps our subjects forget they’re being recorded. 

<music in>

it’s not that I’m lying about my commitment to my subjects… I actually do care about all of them… 

Jess: I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to support you. Just hit me up.

Ernesto: I’m here for you too Jess.

Jess: you can just call me if you need something.

Judy: You’re a tremendously special person

Jess: You are

I just also have an agenda…  

Jess: I kind of wanna bum a smoke from you and then I'll give you one next time I see you.

Ernesto: You smoke cigarettes? 

Jess: Is that allowed? Thank you.

I think about the strange intimacy of a long personal interview. 

Jess: I wanna know your dreams and fears

Ernesto: your. About life?

Jess: or, yeah. Yeah.

When do people talk about the minutia of their lives and feelings except with dear friends, lovers, therapists… and documentarians? 

Judy: I love you. 

Jess: I love you… I’ll see you

<music out>

<SFX skype ring IN>

I re-read Michael’s last text… and call him back. 

<SFX skype ring OUT>

Michael: Hello?  

Jess: Hi, Michael. 

Michael: Hello. Hey, how you doing, Shane? 

Yeah, Michael has never called me Shane before. Something’s up.

Jess: Actually, I'm feeling a bit bad because I just got your text and, and I feel like I hurt your feelings and I just wanted to clarify…

Michael: Oh yeah. Yeah. I didn't want you to get the wrong impression, you know? 

Jess: I guess I just wanted to... Clarify that..  while things are in production, I just want you to know that, you know, I value our relationship, but I do think of it to a large extent as a professional relationship, even though personally, I really like you and like spending time with you… So like when I suggested we go skating, for example… I was.. thinking it might be in the context of an interview. And so I obviously wasn't clear and I'm really sorry. 

Michael: Yeah, I wasn't trying to hit on you or nothing like that. 

Jess: Yeah, yeah, no.. I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't been sending you mixed signals.. 

Michael: Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, no, you have it. No, you have it. You're definitely professional…  yeah definitely, yeah definitely…  So, so now we, we, we cleared out about it. Don't you feel better now? 

Jess: I do, yeah. Thanks for taking my call. 

But I don’t really feel better. 

<music in>

Because it strikes me that Michael is in a moment of his life where opportunities for connection have been hard to come by 

Michael summit call: I don't have too many friends where I could hang out. With it, you know, do things with it and they don't want nothing from me

Michael: So yeah, they always asking for money, asking for something. I know that it wasn’t gonna be like that with you. I wanted someone new and refreshing in my life.

Jess: No I get it.

Since getting out of prison just over a year ago, Michael has been on parole and hustling just to make ends meet. Meeting me for interviews in between shifts at a slew of isolating, low-paid gigs

Jess: How was work today?

Michael: Is was good it was good. I’m about to leave this job though. I'm about to get a job in the hospital. Yeah, I just did the urine test yesterday,

Jess: How’s the job? 

Michael: Night shift. Yeah. Three to 11. Yeah… I gotta get up early, four 30 in the morning. It's only 17 an hour… but I always had a fear for driving for a company.. because. Even if you park it wrong… the company is going to consider you a liability… and it's not really worth it for 17$ either. 

It’s been taking a toll on his relationships.

Michael: I was just having some, you know, relationship issues.. With my fiance…. because of all the traumatic things we went through…  she bailed me out of jail two times before, with her hard-earned money

But when he tells his story, Michael gets to bask in the connection of sharing and being listened to… as well as the sense of control that comes from being the narrator of your own life.

Michael: Yeah, I never really had that support. Yeah, that I really needed…  that’s always been my problem all my life… Yeah, but it's all good though… Things is, things is starting to surface or things is coming my way. Yep. Yep.  Slowly but surely.

<music out>

This… brings me to the other reason I’m left feeling bad... 

I’m actually really uncertain about whether Michael’s story is even a good fit for the series. Because I’ve now realized that he, like Ernesto, has also been on an addiction recovery journey…

Michael: I've been clean for almost four years now. I don't drink no more. I don't smoke or nothing, so my life completely turned around 360 degrees.

And like Judy, he too has been struggling with unstable housing…

Michael: I had to move 3 times in one year… so that cost me a lot of money…

Michael: Now i live in a homeless shelter. There’s a lot of negative energy in there

Even though their stories are different In such a short series, it won’t work to repeat content themes…

Michael:  You have to become a student before you can be a teacher. You gotta be quick, quick to listen and slow to speak.  

Then there’s the problem of how Michael talks about his life… he does this thing that’s every audio producer’s nightmare… 

Michael: You need to start treating yourself instead of cheating yourself.

Michael: I’m living out my dreams

<music in>

Michael tends to bury every reflection in a torrent of inspirational cliches… which makes sense for a man who has spent so much time in institutionalized personal development groups… No matter the reason for the tendency … it makes it harder for me to coax him to speak in specifics, which is the way I need him to to tell his story 

Michael: If your mind can conceive it your heart can believe it you can achieve it

I don’t think I can afford to spend any more time on trying to make Michael’s story work for the series. 

<music out>

And I’m getting to the end of what I can do for Judy, too…

<music in>

Jess:  It seems like your priority is constantly more time. And my priority is like, what can we do right away?

Judy: I don't wanna comment… 

<music out>

It’s now been a year since my auditions, and I’m still heavily involved in Judy’s situation. I’ve talked to lawyers, social service agencies, housing facilities, landlords, and case workers trying to figure out how to get Judy permanently housed. But we’re pretty much having the same argument we were having last November…

By now I’ve clued into a fact I should have probably have figured out a long time ago. Judy’s ongoing housing crisis is so much bigger than anything one person could take on.  

Worse, I’m starting to think that my deal with her might actually be more harmful than the regular documentarian’s promise that telling a subject’s story “had the potential” to “make a difference.”  

The fact is that I can’t help Judy because I can’t “produce” her life the way I would produce a documentary about her life. 

  not least because when I started this project, I actually wanted to make space for true collaboration and even friendship

But the big picture is that I wouldn't have a relationship with Michael or Judy if I didn’t need something from them. 

So now what? 

<music in>

It’s June and my funding is almost gone. The series is scheduled to launch in early September. I’ve got drafts of the first three episodes. But I’m nervous. Because my “new rules” for doing documentary seem to have backfired at every turn. And when the series airs, it’s not going to present the st ories my subjects said they wanted to make at their auditions. I’m not even sure the series will present a story my subjects are comfortable with at all.

There’s only one thing I can do… 

I have a window before I have to lock these episodes. Enough time to get them involved, for them to all make suggestions and requests about how I’ve shaped this narrative. Maybe they'll have ideas of how I can change the series to make sure I’m doing right by them when the show comes out. 

<music out>

Next week, I’m opening up the editing suite. I’m playing the drafts I have for Judy, Michael, and Ernesto

<music in, “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“Cmon now, I find

It's nicer to be kind

Than to be cold all the time

To be free to call you mine

And be able to see through it

I’m a fraud, you always knew it

Even if I don’t do it on purpose. 

But that’s just on the surface 

Getting deeper makes me nervous, 

But resisting doesn’t service me anymore.”

From Radiotopia Presents, this was Episode 3 of Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative. A series about what happens to all of us— subjects, documentarians, and audiences— when stories about our lives become products. 

I’m Jess Shane— I wrote and produced this episode.

My editor is Sara Nics. The executive producer of Radiotopia is Audrey Mardavich. 

Radiotopia Presents’ managing producer is Yooree Losordo. 

Contributing editors on this episode were Chioke I’Anson, Michelle Macklem, and Eleanor McDowall.

Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem, and our music was composed by Eliza Niemi. Additional music by Michelle Macklem. Additional production support from Dante Hussein and Mona Hassan. Our episode art is by Justin Broadbent. And a big thank you to my friends and sounding boards Allie Graham, Ivana Dizdar, Kaitlin Prest, Kristine White, Carla Green, Kate Sutherland, and Christina Hardinge. Our conversations were essential in shaping the many iterations of this episode. I also want to shout out my friend Alex, who put in many hours on behalf of Judy, her attorney, and I during the making of this episode. 

This reporting was also supported by the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“I’m so sorry that I’m fake sometimes

It’s just how I’ve been trained 

And I know it doesn’t justify

My opaque little lies”

E4: Feedback— Transcript

Jess Shane: A quick note, this show is serialized. If you haven’t listened to Episodes 1-3, yet, be sure to do so before listening to this episode.

Jess:  The last member of our party has arrived! 

Judy: Hello

Ernesto, Michael: Hey, Judy,

Judy: Forgive me for the delay, 

Jess: Oh, this, you're gonna sit over here. This is Ernesto who's in the documentary.. And this is Sara.

Judy: Hi Sara.

<music in: pulsing beats, ethereal ah’s> 

It’s June. There are five of us in a cramped meeting room I’ve rented for the day. 

Jess: I'm just so happy that all of you are here together… I've just been, I've been constantly thinking about the three of you for about a year.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

Jess: Basically constantly. So it's really wild to have you all in the same room. 

Michael: Definitely. Yeah.

Ernesto: It’s wild to be here… you know?   

Ernesto is to my right wearing a pair of pants he’s modified himself and my editor, Sara Nics, is to my left, running the recording equipment. Judy and Michael sit across from me. she in a cozy sweater and lanyard, and he in a striking black and white Hawaiian shirt. 

<music out>

Jess: the series that I'm making is four episodes.

Michael: OK 

Jess: I have drafts right now of the first three episodes. 

Michael: OK

Jess: Episode one is about me.

Michael: OK

Jess: And episodes two and three are about you. The fourth episode of the series is about today, so this meeting we’re having right now. I, I wanna play all three of them for you today. because they've been made out of things that you have told me and we've recorded together. and I want you to be able to make suggestions mm-hmm. 

This gathering was always built into my project— I told everyone about it at the auditions. That ultimately, I wanted to tell their stories.. within a broader project about how personal stories are used by the documentary industry… and that part of the project would entail them getting to hear, weigh in on, and talk to the other people featured in the series before it went to air. 

Jess: Normally in documentaries, this never happens. This is very unusual, what we're doing right now…  I got all of you to sign a release form. That's very standard in documentary. I give you these release forms and they say like, I have the right to record you and use the tape however I want

Ernesto: At your discretion 

Jess: At my discretion… but I’m just like you know your opinion matters to me.. and it will effect what happens in the series

Michael: Yeah. That's your human nature part. That's why you're doing this, what you're doing today.

The cuts I’m playing today are in good shape— the sound design is still unfinalized, I have to re-record some narration, but on my end, they’re just about ready for mixing and polish. But according to the rules I created for this project, whether they’re finished or not isn’t only up to me. 

Jess: Yeah I can make changes still.

<THEME; plucky strings, swelling bowing, curious>

The idea is to listen to my three episode drafts back to back, as a “bingeing listener” might, with time in between each episode to discuss everyone’s editorial ideas. I’ve booked this room for the whole afternoon because  we’re planning to be here for a while…

I’ve given everyone a pen and paper, and we’re ordering some large pizzas— 

Judy: I would like one with extra cheese

—to get us through this marathon.

Of course, it won’t be a marathon for you. I've edited a long afternoon down to about 20 minutes. Just something to keep in mind while you listen.

<MX>

Okay! [bluetooth speaker powers on]

I’m Jess Shane, and this is Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative.

<THEME ends>

My subjects and I start our in-person listening session with Episode 1

<E1 plays in the room> “If you're listening to this, I'm guessing you've been moved, entertained even changed by a well told true story about someone else's life.

Jess: This volume good?

Michael: Yeah

slow, single plucks, gradual drums and sliding cello chords

We hear about my first ever documentary subject, the teenaged gymnast. And her skepticism

Jess: Partially as a result of the process that we did together, like I'm interested in, in taking my work is in this direction that's about actually talking about. The complicatedness of the documentary process.

Nicola: Can I be honest with you? what makes you think that other people are gonna be interested in hearing that?

Jess: Oh my gosh.

Nicola: I’m sorry…

Jess: I mean it’s about, like I feel like, as a subject, I'm interested in the ethics of documentary making.

Nicola: Ok, yeah, that’s interesting...

So I’m really not sure how this is going to go down. But no one “needs to use the bathroom” part way through the episode. Michael is hunched over scribbling notes.

We listen for almost 40 minutes… and finally reach the moment of truth: Feedback.

<music out>

Judy:  I was amazingly impressed by your narrative and your clarity of speaking, I've always thought of you as being very clear spoken, but hearing you on the tape blew, blew me away… I think that's a very marketable gift you have…  

Michael:  And uh, the music background was wonderful. I loved that.. and um.you'll see when this process is done, when it touches people,all the lucrative things that's gonna come out of it, 

Jess: You're so sweet. You're both being so nice to me!

I’ll take the compliments. But what I’m really looking for is a sense of whether the group gets what I’m trying to do with this series…  

Ernesto: I gathered the food and you're cooking it. I went through all the trauma and experience and you're making it palatable for society, put it all on display and tell us directly what you're doing, brilliant. Very revolutionary…

Jess: Wow. I'm glad you saw that, because I think that this series is a response to seeing a problem in this industry.

Ernesto: By being so transparent… You are directly attacking a problem. 

To have Ernesto reflect all this back to me feels good. Like the right starting point for having a productive conversation today. 

At the same time, playing Episode 1 was always gonna be the easy part of today’s meeting, because the episode isn’t about any of them. It’s mostly about me!

Jess: So episode two is where things get spicy. It's all about Ernesto… Well, it's kind of also about me…

Ernesto: I was waiting too… I was like.. Am I gonna hear my voice in there? 

Jess: So… I'm really nervous to show it to you all.

Ernesto: Me too.

Jess: Um, I have never listened to something that I've made live with the people who are in the thing… 

Michael: I know I'm gonna like it. I ain't worried bout it.

Jess: I mean, we'll see how Ernesto likes it.

 [Playing E2 in the room]

After interviewing 30 strangers from the internet, I had to make some tough choices. Select four subjects to make documentaries about the series… 

I watch Ernesto while we listen

He looks out the window. Looks down, fiddles with a bracelet he’s wearing

“modeling comes with a cost… the industry can be uh cutthroat”

At moments, his body seems to stiffen. He tilts his neck, leans forward and puts his elbows on his knees

“Uh I was trying to self-medicate you know I was too anxious” 

When he hears the Radiotopia staffers comment on his story… why they think it won’t work for the show... 

Audrey: But he has kind of…. I mean it’s like a generic sounding story, you know?”

… Ernesto raises his eyebrows. 

<music in>

We get to the part of the episode when Ernesto finally goes into action in the dressing room. And I talk about trying to find ways to keep the episode moving along

“So as you can hear, Ernesto's original take drags a bit so you don't get the full force of how I think he—

Ernesto: I'm a dragger!

[Michael laughs]

Ernesto looks up at Michael and Judy. He smiles.

[cut] I’m doing a denim… [cut]

 … skirt … [cut] 

… with a big… [cut]

… utility jacket. A lot of pockets and mesh…. [cut]

Ernesto picks up his pen and begins writing something down…

He crosses and uncrosses his legs. He plays with the buttons on his shirt… then hunches over… More note-taking. What is he writing?  

<music out>

As we listen to the part of the episode where Ernesto offers to change his presentation and his delivery… even what events he tells me about, considering what would work for an audience, Ernesto in the room with me leans back, clasps his hands behind his head and stares at the ceiling. 

Ernesto: Yeah… should have talked faster

I can see now that Ernesto hasn’t been writing, he’s been drawing… a series of interlocking shapes like a psychedelic chain-link fence, traced over and over so that the pen has worn grooves into the paper…

As the episode winds down, Ernesto glances at me. I brace myself

Ernesto: That’s it? You wanna start or should I start?

Jess: I dunno…. You start.

Ernesto: ​I start? Well, it hurts to hear my voice and how, uh, I talked like this and just very weird. I don’t hear myself often so now I don’t want to accept that I sound like that.  Now I’m conscious and I’m not gonna sound like that… 

<music in>

This is a classic response from someone who's new to hearing their own voice on tape. 

Ernesto: Definitely felt cool though to be interesting enough to be recorded and things like that. Um, so in a way it was an ego stroke.

But it isn’t the kind of feedback I’m looking for… What does he want me to change about how he and his story are represented? I try to prompt him.

Jess: Something that I feel like I struggled with in making this episode is that you are so multidimensional and I had to make something that was 35 minutes maximum… and so what do I keep in and what do I leave out… and how does that boil you into this character? Knowing that you are someone who likes to play with characters and is self aware with how you play with characters. 

Ernesto: Well, I'd say you took it off of me and made it into a…. philosophical question in the documentary world… which I appreciate… but if anything is missing, I'd say it's capturing me and also my rebellion 

Jess: um, say more about that.

Ernesto: The part where I said the rape and police brutality… Like I was like… you wanna exploit my shock value? Not you but the industry… you’re just trying to work for a company… You want me to just say all these crazy things that happened to me, all this experience and then put it out there and make money and I get the 20 an hour… you know we’re just gone… I can talk about that but what’s it going to do. from what I recall 

Jess: You do say that

Ernesto: I didn’t hear that

Jess: Hm…

Ernesto: That self awareness I think is what lacked in my character in there

Ernesto: It's not that I want credit or anything like that, but I do feel like it was a conjoined effort, you know?And it’s hard for me to say that because I don’t want to… I respect the art you know? You kinda made it your thing rather than our thing…

<music out>

My thing rather than our thing. 

I agree. From the beginning, Ernesto acutely understood how trauma becomes entertainment.

Jess: So you think I need to clarify that scene and put it more clearly into context

Ernesto: I think there’s a lot of audio, for you to find audio that says I don’t want to give a shock value story and call it a day

Ernesto: I’m sure there's audio somewhere.

Jess: I mean, yeah, there was, 

Ernesto: for you to look through…  

Jess: It's not tough. It's my job.

I can look for more of the type of tape Ernesto is asking for… but Isn’t there anything more  substantial he wants from me before I lock this episode? 

Jess: Would you do it differently? You know, would you wish that I had told you something different 

Ernesto: I don't know. It doesn’t really… 

Ernesto: I don't feel I'm one to judge. 

Jess: I want your judgement.

Judy: She wants your judgment.

Jess: Yes.  

Ernesto: But I can't, I don't know… I can't tell you I don't like it. Like, I can't, I don't want it to hold any weight on you… it shouldn't get personal. You know what I mean?

Jess: What do you mean? 

Ernesto: You know, I'm putting my, my soul and my essence on recording and it's there now and there's nothing I can do about it…

Jess: I mean, there is something you can do about it. Like, that's why we're here… 

Ernesto:  In a way I like the, you know, I like, uh, the powerlessness of it, you know. It is on your hands. You know, what you do with my…

Jess: I mean, usually it is in my hands, but this is why I've called, I've called this meeting, I've called you all here today, is because I really… I think that the fact that it's totally out of people's hands after they've let me in and opened themselves up and made themselves so vulnerable. I, I don't, I don't know if that's totally fair… Was this fair? And if it wasn't fair, what needs to happen to make it fair? Do you need credit, is it about money? Is it about editorial control? Do you need to become anonymous? Do you want a Directors cut? I'm open, like I wanna talk about it, I wanna brainstorm. There's an opportunity here to do literally whatever we want, whatever we need… Because I recorded all of you and I have to deliver something to Radiotopia… and.. I have those release forms… but I also feel responsible for what I've created

Ernesto: I don’t ca— re where it goes… send it off, it’s in your hands type of thing…

It seems like Ernesto doesn’t have, or isn’t willing, to give me anything else right now. For him, the conversation is over… 

Ernesto: I don’t know if you remember Jess, but I’m addicted to cigarettes. So sitting in here for 3-4 hours. 

Jess: Oh yeah we’re going to have breaks 

Judy: So, we're getting an eating break now. right? 

Jess: No we’re going to eat and listen at the same time.

<music in>

The sun is going down, but we still need to get through a whole third episode. Onward! 

Jess: So this episode, I'm the most scared to share because I think.. Judy,

Judy: Yeah.

Jess: …your life got really complicated while we were making this thing, and so that poses challenges. 

Judy: Sure… Well, actually one thing that I'd like to comment on, um, I was, um, I was moved by a comment that Ernesto said… about you… that, um, your efforts to do this documentary are transparent. So we’re gonna really depend on that word transparent, then let it all hang out. 

Michael: Yep. 

Judy: Because that's reality

Out of all the people me and Judy are most alike… in gender, race, and class background. We definitely got the closest over the course of the production process. Over the past year, we recorded so many hours of her life; some of those hours were really hard… I’m concerned about what it will feel like for Judy to hear these moments played back to her, accompanied by my sometimes critical reflections.

<music out>

Jess: Anyone have anything to say before we start? 

Michael: Well, I'm ready. 

Judy: No, yeah I’m, you know, up for it. 

[E3 recording plays on speakers] It's 8:00 AM on a blustery fall day in early September, and waiting by the doors of the church the Upper West Side. The swing and there's Judy [fade under] 

Again, as we listen, I study Judy’s face, her body language. I’m so scared. Is she going to hate me for this?

Judy: The landlord’s attorney calculated that the rental arrear debt is $58,000. 

 Is she going to storm out of the room… 

Judy: This is a major major event. and just enjoy the fact that we’re alive.

Jess: It's amazing to see Judy like this [fade down]

But only 5 minutes in, when we hit some tape of a good day–maybe the best day–Judy and I have had together, and something else happens…

I mean, her excitement is great tape. I won't have to live in a shelter for the rest of my life. I'll be able to move into

… she lets out a sob… 

[Judy is heard sobbing on top of the playback]

Jess: Do you wanna stop? 

Michael: Need a Kleenex?

Judy: Think this is brilliant. Mm-hmm. I can't believe

Michael: Yep, it’s a beautiful story. 

Judy: Yeah. Yeah. I've been just so stressed out over everything. Mm-hmm. Loss of my husband, who was my whole world. Mm-hmm. My soulmate, and my mentor, my protector, my provider. And then constant uncertainty of not knowing what was going to happen to me                                                     

Judy: Loss of whole support system…  it’s an ongoing—

Michael: Process, yeah

Judy: —story. it hasn't been resolved yet. to your great credit you were able to excerpt certain things that really… conveyed what was going on [Judy touches her chest repeatedly] in my soul.

Jess: Mm-hmm. You had a lot going on.                                                                                                            

Judy: Oh, Yeah. My, my very survival… my very survival…                                                                                                                    

<music in>

Watching Ernesto and Michael relate to her, support her… I’m really moved… and relieved. 

Ernesto: Yeah. that really captured the essence                                                          

Judy: Yeah. The essence. beautiful. Recaptured the essence. Yeah. That's really beautiful, Ernesto.   

I’m reminded of my old documentary dream— to connect people through personal storytelling. To build empathy. This is what I always wanted this work to be for!

Even amidst the whole elaborate process I’ve set up, they’re here listening to Judy. Comforting her. Empathizing with her.

<music out>

But the episode has only just started. And we haven’t gotten to the parts I was so worried about her hearing. 

Jess: I mean I think it’s hard listening to this scene and we know it wasn’t easy after that.

Judy: That it was a, a, major, um, mm-hmm. Hurdle. A a major hurdle. Mm-hmm.    

Jess: Okay. Should we keep going?                                                          

Judy: Yes, please.                                                          

Jess: You ready? We can stop any, anytime.                                                          

Judy: All right, dear. Yeah. I just was so moved.

When Judy is ready, we keep listening. From that happy moment early in the episode, things get more complicated. We hear about Judy’s insistence on more research. We hear her magical thinking.

How my many attempts to get her to save the things in her apartment seem to go nowhere

I leave my meetings with Judy feeling exhausted and frustrated. 

As the episode unfolds, and I, in narration, begin to describe my own often challenging experience of working with her… I see Judy getting smaller and smaller in her chair.

[Judy sighs loudly]

 Until she’s slumped and twisted, her hair kind of a curtain between us.

[FX]

Judy: All right, Jess, listen, I, if you can come up with ideas for obtaining money, this would be a tremendous asset, and that's what I need, right now, some money? 

Jess: Yeah. Okay. 

Judy: All right. I'll talk to you later. 

Jess (Narrator): I’m flabbergasted. I’m annoyed! And if I’m being completely honest, there’s an ugly part of me that wants you to hear this and be annoyed too. Like why won’t this woman help herself?

I can feel myself mirroring her, as I hug my arms around my stomach…

And by the part of the episode when I say I’ve realized that getting involved with Judy in this way may have been a mistake, I can’t bring myself to look at Judy, either. 

Because even though I knew Judy would be listening with me. Even though I tried to temper the episode knowing this, no matter how you slice it, it doesn’t paint Judy in the most flattering light. 

When the episode wraps up, we all sit in silence. Even Michael doesn’t have anything to say. After a full minute, my editor, Sara, asks:

Sara: How do you feel, Jess?                                                          

Jess: I mean, that was, um, uh, hard to listen to with you, I just feel like you've been through so much hardship and I feel scared that this listening to this was like another, just as more pain or something.                                                       

Judy: Um, my reaction to hearing this is that, um, not finished yet. In other words, um, part of the story has been shared with the audience, but I'm at a point now a juncture where, um, I need to make it into the story. I wanna make it into a happy ending.

Judy’s… not… upset… I think?

Jess: What was it like to listen to something about yourself with people who are essentially strangers in the room?

Judy: I enjoyed it.                                                          

Jess: Yeah. How so?

Michael: Oh, I love it. Yeah. I love it.  

Jess: In what way

Judy: Well, I, I was listening very intently because I, I was, um, waiting for the unfolding of all your insights. I, I, you know, was trying to follow the path of, uh, your narrative. Um, it didn't bother me at all that I had, uh, Ernesto, Sara, and Michael with me. It didn't disturb me at all.

Michael: You feel like we are family                                                          

Judy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt very comfortable and I had no sense of discomfort … then again, you have to realize, I have had to deal with so many different people and, um, I've had to adjust myself so that I live in shelters with people from all kinds of backgrounds… I'm used to being sort of public... Mm-hmm.                                              

So it doesn't bother me, bother me that my story, um, has been, uh, summarized like this. Mm. Um, I felt, um, that you captured a lot of the, um, episodes of our interaction, very insightfully. I hadn't realized, to tell you the truth, um, how frustrating it was for you to be in connection with me.

Judy’s episode seems to have made an impact on Michael and Ernesto.

Ernesto: Because if you look at her, you wouldn't think she was going through all that stuff. Yeah.You carry yourself with a lot of energy and… there was a lot of despair, pain, loss type of like… 

Judy: So you wouldn't realize that I had been living in a shelter, all of that. 

Ernesto: Yeah. Yeah.

Judy: For almost a decade.

Michael: I've been through that too. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.Yeah. 

Judy: It's not easy.

Michael: It’s not. 

<music in>

Listening to this exchange is disorienting. 

I was so afraid of hurting Judy, of hurting all of them… but everyone seems... kinda unfazed. 

Which is great, on the one hand.

On the other… it doesn’t really help me figure out the answer to my big question about how to make more ethical documentaries. 

<music out>

Michael: I think it was perfect.

Michael takes his phone out of his pocket and checks his messages. Ernesto shrugs at me and opens Instagram. Judy just looks tired. 

Ernesto: I think you got good content here. All three of us.    

The little room is hot and we’ve had to switch on the fluorescent lights because it’s dark out. 

Jess: Well, it's 7:30, so, which is when I said we would end…. so I have… 

I pay everyone and begin to pack up… but I feel sort of empty… because after all this, I didn’t really get what I was looking for… I wanted to feel that as the series came to a close, I could finally work with my subjects, could finally build an equitable partnership here… I blocked out the whole next month of my calendar to make changes to the series, to do another round of drafts if needed. But the way we’re leaving things, it doesn’t seem like they have much interest in that

<music in>

Jess: Would you sign up again or would you do this again? 

Michael: Sure. I would.

Ernesto: Yeah. I’d do it again.

Judy: I would, I would sign up again. As long as it's with you. 

Michael: Yep

It’s nice to hear them say this….

Judy: Can I take a picture with you guys? 

But something … doesn’t feel right…

(Jess giggling)

All day, I’ve heard them defer to me, heard them shower me with praise. 

But it’s what they haven’t said that really hits me… in the lack of feedback, all I hear is my power in the room. 

<music out>

Ernesto: Hello? [talking to a man on the street]

Jess: Hi. it going, Ernesto? 

After we last met, I realized my expectations for what would go down in the room were way off. To expect anyone to decide how they felt about how they were represented in a documentary right away, and in front of the person who made it, the person who’s paying them? Sounds a bit like when your boss asks for “anonymous feedback”... it feels risky! Maybe they all need more time and space to process! 

It’s a few weeks after the listening session. I reach out to Ernesto to check in.

Jess: Well I wanted to follow up with you about the session that we had recently and see how it’s sitting with you. 

Ernesto: … I think I'm good with how everything is…

I reach Michael too…

Michael: I think it was a huge success… I really loved listening to the stories. People want to feel like they’re part of something … That your opinion matters, that, you know, that your voice matters, you know, things like that… people want to feel,feel special. They don’t want to be left out

Jess: Yeah

But alas, no new notes.

Michael: … How's that other lady doing?... 

Jess: Judy?

Michael: Yeah Judy 

Actually… I have the same question… 

Voicemail: I am sorry. The person you are trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet. 

<music in>

I did hear from Judy a few days after the listening session… she said she looked forward to working together to “improve” the series. That she had some suggestions for the sections about her, and wanted to work through them with me. 

And I was like yes! A year into working on this project, I was finally gonna get the kind of feedback and collaboration I was hoping for! Right away I texted Judy back to schedule a call… but I didn’t hear back…

For two weeks, I keep texting and calling and emailing… but Judy never responds. 

3 weeks in and I’m reaching out to Judy daily. Sometimes more than daily! I am being annoying. I’m familiar now with the struggle that is reaching Judy, but this time, there is no more time.

I’m not gonna lie… I’m disappointed— this period earmarked for revisions and collaboration was an essential part of the vision for this project! And it’s getting wasted…  

It’s mid July, and the series is coming out in early September. At first, I reluctantly move ahead with production. I’m still trying to get in touch with Judy but I go ahead and track new voiceover, make edits to the final sound design and mix. I run through the marketing plan with the Radiotopia team, reach out to press, and update my website. I’m laser-focused and in terms of launch date, I’m right on schedule. 

<music out>

A month after the listening session, I call it. I compose a text to let Judy know that since I didn’t hear back from her, I will be moving ahead with her episode as is.

I press send… 

And a wave of relief washes over me. I can finally wrap up this project. 

<music in; credits song, “Flip” by Eliza Niemi>

Then there’s a surge of energy, of excitement. 

I think about everything I’ve learned over the past year… about myself and the kind of work I want and don’t want to make. 

I forged real relationships with Ernesto, Michael and Judy. I can can be confident thy won’t be surprised by what they hear when the series comes out. 

And each of them had several chances to give me feedback. And even while they didn’t… not really… they could have. I did everything I said I’d do in this project…

Maybe what I’ve learned is that the premise for my project was off… and that I’ve been thinking about documentary collaboration all wrong… 

Asking people to collaborate on a project that wasn’t conceived of together from the get-go, means that I’m always going to be the one who is more invested, in both the process and the product… 

Maybe collaboration isn’t the point. And making documentary more fair really just requires more transparency about whose project this is and who this is for. 

Regardless, now I’m comfortably back in the driver’s seat… where I’m used to being. 

I put on my noise cancelling headphones and go for a walk around my neighborhood, doing a last listen to the final cuts of episodes 1, 2 and 3. It’s hot out, and there’s a gentle breeze. The sun is starting to set and the clouds are tinged with pink.  

The credits start to roll as I get back to my apartment. All of the episodes are sounding good and I feel a hum deep in my body. The hum of satisfaction. The hum of pride. 

Sometimes no answer is an answer. Sometimes collaboration looks different than how you expect it to look…

<music “Flip” out>

I take off my headphones. And realize there’s another hum happening… my phone is vibrating. I look at the caller ID. Shit. 

Judy: Hi, Jess. Can you hear me all right or is there an echo here? 

Jess: I can hear you. 

Judy. is finally. calling. me back.… 

Judy: Well, I want you to succeed in this presentation… 

And she has notes.

And, my presentation should convey a message, anyone can become homeless. You did include that in the tape. I recall that. But the end of the episode that you put together completely lost the mark, and that, in my opinion, should be revamped.

Revamped? “completely lost the mark”? I start to panic… 

<music in>

Jess: So can you explain a little bit more to me about what about the ending needs to change in your opinion? 

Judy: Okay. All right. What was important to me was that. I am a person who, grew up basically in a normal way with two dotting parents who protected me and made sure that I wasn't, living a life of struggle. Then I ended up, having a life partner. And he was extraordinarily protective of me. And then he died and lets me struggling for survival. And this is the point that I want to convey to the public that, you can't take anything for granted in life. And I don't know if I ever,

Jess: But he does say that in the episode. 

Judy: You didn't say that.

Jess: I can send you a copy of the script. Like I promise it's in there. It's explicitly in the episode.. and I can Emphasize it. If that's important to you, I, I will emphasize it.

Judy: Why don't we simply delete what, what you’re projecting in the end of the episode.

<music out>

Judy is asking for huge changes. 

Judy: You know, the, exultation and the joy that, I got when I was awarded the voucher that was a happy moment in the episode, and I, I think that was good okay? But to say the other thing, no, no. 

She wants me to cut more than half of the episode… aka the most personal and specific—and interesting— parts of the episode…  including all the nitty gritty of why she’s still living in the shelter she’s calling me from now… 

She’s talking about the part of the episode that represents 8 months of reporting, 8 months of my resources… 

Jess: What I'm trying to show is that the system is broken. And I kind of feel like the fact that you haven't been able to get the support that you need, I think it's an important part of your story 

Judy: We can get around it by saying that the social service industry has failed tremendously by not helping people who really need help. I'm begging you to remove that last thing.

It seems to me that what Judy wants is basically a public service announcement about homelessness… not a documentary. Right now, the episode works because it’s concrete, it’s personal, it’s specific! To cut the details of her experience, to just say “the social service industry has failed” without showing how it has failed… basically tells listeners nothing. 

But I am right up against my deadline… the episode is due in 10 days. I start desperately throwing out ideas.

Jess: I would like to change your first name in the episode to a pseudonym. 

Judy: No, no. I think that we should keep the name Judy, because I might wanna use, um, this presentation, for other purposes.

Jess: Well, what if I can make something else that's for you to use for whatever purposes you want, so I can use my version and change your name and keep what I want. And then I'll make another version where I'll say anything that you want and you can use it in any way that you want.

Judy: I don't know, Jess, I, I, right now, I don't know.

Jess: I'll remove all identifying details. 

Judy: It's not enough. I want that aspect of my life deleted.  

But Judy is adamant that we cut everything that happens after she qualifies for her rent voucher… which happens less than 10 minutes in…

Judy: It's not conveying the story, that anyone can get, become homeless. This is a whole other path you're going down. 

Jess: Yeah. I have gone down a whole other path because this is my artistic project… The thing is, Judy, I told you, the last episode of the series is about correcting anything that was wrong in the first three episodes. and also the listening session that we did together and also about this phone call because this series is all about. Documentary and how the people who sacrifice time and vulnerability kind of get left behind in… So everything you're saying now can be in the last episode. and so we just recorded you saying that, and I'm gonna put it in the episode. That's how I designed the series.

Judy: Okay. Alright. But the other stuff I want deleted. I never gave any authorization to, um, convey this information to anyone. 

Jess: I told you whenever I was recording and you always said it was okay, You signed a release form that said that I could record you, 

Judy: But I never brought up. Listen, Jess, it's, it is potentially treacherous to me

Jess: mm-hmm…. I mean, I can shift some of the language…. But I also at this point, there are certain things about this story that evolved me and my experience, and I also have a prerogative. To, you know, my art and to say what is important that I think needs to be conveyed, that I think what society needs to hear. And, you know, I think that there is some injustice to that. And I think it's hard because I have your release form. You know, technically I can do whatever I want. I don't wanna do whatever I want, but I also have commitments that are outside of you that are to my profession, to my funders!

Judy: I understand that, but I can't afford it. I have no support system Jess. I have no husband, no parents, nobody. Nobody, I cannot add to my stress. I can get sick, and then who's gonna take care of me?

Jess: I mean, you have me. I'm not going anywhere unless you want me to go away, 

Judy: no, Of course. It's wonderful to have you with my friend, and you're a wonderful person, but you have to realize my vulnerability is enormous. It's enormous. 

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

Judy: Look, right now, I, I, I wanna talk more with you, but I've got somebody waiting for me outside. I can't, I get it. Spend extra time now. But If we collaborate and we come up with some degree of compromise, then it might be my, part of my legacy…. look, I want you to succeed at this

Jess: i, I've not, I haven't agreed yet, but I'll think about it. And I appreciate you expressing this, and let me look at the episode and see what I can do. Yeah. 

Judy: Okay. Alright. 

I hang up the phone. 

Then, I hang up my face… on my desk. 

I know you thought you were here for a four-part series? Listener, so did I. 

<music in>

Next time on the Final episode of Shocking Heartbreaking Transformative…

Audrey: Despite the fact that we're like a non-profit, we're still a business right… we’re not immune to capitalism we operate within it… would we have green lighted your series today? Probably not

I’m Jess Shane— I wrote and produced this episode. 

My editor is Sara Nics. The executive producer of Radiotopia  is Audrey Mardavich. 

Radiotopia Presents’ managing producer is Yooree Losordo. 

Contributing editors were Kalli Anderson and Eleanor McDowall. 

Our sound designer and mix engineer is Michelle Macklem, and our music was composed by Eliza Niemi. 

<music out>

<music in, “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“Cmon now, I find

It's nicer to be kind

Than to be cold all the time

To be free to call you mine

And be able to see through it

I’m a fraud, you always knew it

Even if I don’t do it on purpose. 

But that’s just on the surface 

Getting deeper makes me nervous, 

But resisting doesn’t service me anymore.”

Additional music by Michelle Macklem. Thanks also to Sandhya Dirks, Zakiya Gibbons, Allie Graham, Alex Juhasz, Kate Sutherland, and Kaitlin Prest, who all were essential sounding boards and gave me generous and necessary notes in the final stages of the project. 

This reporting was also supported by the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

<music out>

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“I’m so sorry that I’m fake sometimes

It’s just how I’ve been trained 

And I know it doesn’t justify

My opaque little lies”

<music out>

E5: Release— Transcript

Please note… this is the series finale! If you haven’t listened to Episodes 1-4, yet, go back to the first one before starting this episode.

Judy: I want you to succeed in this presentation… But the end of the episode that you put together completely lost the mark, and that, in my opinion, should be revamped…

<music in: fast, anxious hi-hats>

I’m staring at my laptop in the dark, playing back the recording of my phone call with Judy. I’ve been listening to it on loop for the past 3 hours… 

Jess: So can you explain a little bit more about what needs to change in your opinion? 

Judy: Okay. All right [duck under]

I'm trying to figure out what Judy's asking for.

Judy: That’s why I wanted to participate in your project, to explain to people who are uninitiated about homelessness that they cannot be complacent!

Or, actually, trying to figure out what I'm gonna do about what she's asking for….

Jess: I haven’t agreed yet. Let me look at the episode and see what I can do…  

Judy: Yep. Alright.

I’m Jess Shane, and this is Shocking Heartbreaking, Transformative 

<music out>

When my computer battery dies, I call a friend

Friend 1: Oh dear, what happened?

Jess : I just heard from Judy, and she just yelled at me for an hour after she’s had time to process all the private things I didn’t have permission to share….

And then another friend.

Friend 2: It sounds like your delivery date is quite soon? 

Jess: It's going to be fine. It's going to be great. I actually, I feel, um, scared…

Because I have one week to get my series finished… and Judy has begged me to cut half of the episode I’ve made about her. So now I’m panic-calling all my documentary-producer friends for advice… 

Friend 3: I just think that’s a really tough position, I don’t know I feel for both of you. 

—because some of them are giving me opinions I don’t want to hear. 

Friend 4: I just don't know that you get to make her precarious in your podcast, to make a point. 

Jess: No I agree… and I think that… But I think that the changes that I was going to make…

<music in>

It’s safe to say that I’m spiraling. 

Friend 4: Do we need to know that to make the point that you’re making?

Jess: Well, this is the thing… that’s not the point I’m making. 

First, I’m incredulous. It isn’t my problem that Judy didn’t respond to any of my messages and voicemails until the last possible moment. I told her that we were done with the collaborative part of the production process. And Radiotopia is depending on me to deliver a final product.

Then, I get pissed off! I’m proud of the part of the episode Judy wants me to trash. And I put so much work into it. My whole team did. We went through more than 20 drafts to wrangle it into shape— pulling just the right bits of tape, rearranging, and playing with music and pacing til the episode packed a maximum punch. In many ways, the episode feels like the crown jewel of the series so far.

<music out> 

Audrey: Bravo! Jess, what an episode! Oh my god.

The Radiotopia Executive Producer I’m working with, Audrey Mardavich, agrees:

Audrey: Jess, you've done so much and gone so far and really pushed yourself and so just bravo a million times. 

It’s the part of the series where I show off my documentary skills; it’s surprising, moving, illuminating! 

Audrey:  Like I’m bought into this premise and like, I do want to know how this character is going to land and what she's going to go through to have to get there. But there's like a spiciness to it. 

The story is strong enough that it could change how the audience understands unhoused people’s lives. And it's the details of Judy's story that really bring it all home.

Audrey: People want to know those things.  They want to know about the inner workings…  

And Radiotopia’s managing producer Yooree Losardo, is also stoked about the Judy episode. 

Yooree: Immediately you're like, a reliable, engaging narrator, which I know just from the industry that's really like a holy grail in podcasting, that personality that you can latch onto. 

This episode could also help me land some kind of award… or just my next job… and we’re at a moment in the industry where ‘next jobs’ are hard to come by. 

I tried to tell Judy this…

Jess: I also have a prerogative to my art, and to say what I think is important, what I think society needs to hear.  I also have commitments that are outside of you that are to my profession. And, you know, I think that there is some injustice to that

But Judy just won’t let me just change her name, or some details…

Judy: I'm begging you to remove that last thing…. 

She wants me to toss most of it! 

Judy: The end of the episode that you put together completely was off the mark.

And as I keep going back to the recording of my latest conversation with her… 

Judy: It’s not conveying the point that anyone can become homeless!

Something starts to happen… 

<music in>

Nicola: Had I been able to hear more preliminary versions, I would have been able to help steer you on the right track… 

Judy: This is a whole other path you're going down. 

Nicola: It should have been important to you as a documentary maker, that the person you're making the documentary about, feels like they're being portrayed accurately... 

Judy: The alluding of that aspect of my life, I want that part deleted

Nicola: This is bad and I deleted it.

I start thinking about Nicola, the teenage gymnast...  

<music out> 

The one who hated the story I made about her—my first ever documentary— the one who inspired this entire experiment— And what I hear on that Judy call, it’s a total deja-vu.

<music in>

I created this project to make room for the kind of feedback Judy’s given me. I asked her for it repeatedly. And gave me exactly what I’d asked for… late, but still! And lo and behold, I reacted with the same talking points I used with Nicola all those years ago. I invoked my ‘legal rights’ to use her story: 

Jess: I think it's hard because I have your release form. You know, technically I can do whatever I want.

I laid on the guilt about my professional obligations:

Jess: But I also have commitments that are outside of you, to my art and to my profession. 

I went on a diatribe about my artistic vision: 

Jess: Yeah, I have gone down another path because this was my artistic project. [slowed down and distorted sfx] THIS IS MMMYYY ARRTTISSTICC PROJJECCTTT!

The more I listen to the conversation, the more embarrassed I feel.

I can’t believe I spoke to Judy that way. Here I am, neck deep in my documentary ethics project, and I basically threatened an unhoused woman! What the hell happened to me? 

Then the lightbulb moment… I realize I haven’t been honest with Judy… or with myself. This isn't just about my artistic vision, or about wanting to appear professional and reliable. This is about money.

It’s the end of July and I started working on this project almost a year ago. Radiotopia gave me a budget of 50K to be delivered to me in three increments over a year of production. On paper, 20K of that budget was supposed to pay me. But in reality, I was able to pay myself more like 37K… by cutting every corners, applying for grants, borrowing equipment, recording in shitty rooms, relying on friends for discounts and favors… and still, that just barely covered my rent and living expenses 

I had to borrow money from my parents to finish paying my sound designer… and take on other work… like making podcast ads and sponcon, as well as a bunch of teaching gigs to supplement my income from the show. But now, in July, that budget is spent. 

I literally cannot afford to spend any more time working on this project.

<music in: ominous strings>

… On the other hand… Judy has given me an opportunity here… to really make the kind of project I set out to make. But can I do right by her and deliver the product I’ve already been paid for… on time… a week from now? 

Jess: you know, when you're overworking yourself, and then you get hemorrhoids and a yeast infection?

Sara: Oh, God, honey. I'm so sorry, that is horrible.

It’s Sunday. Two days after I was supposed to hand over the final cut of episode 3 and the new script of episode 4 to my editor Sara Nics, who has now left for her summer holiday… But Sara picks up the phone and listens to me until I have nothing left to say except the obvious…

Jess: I think I need a break…

Sara: I just, I mean, there's no way that you're gonna do E three and E four 

Jess: No.

Sara: Yeah you can’t do both of those this week… nobody could do that. No, literally. Nobody could do that. 

Jess: Yep… I think I’m gonna call Audrey.

I’m talking about Radiotopia’s executive producer… what choice do I have? 

<music out>

I call Audrey’s cell… I tell her probably a little too much information about my nether regions, and that I need to cut the second half of Judy’s story… to completely redo episode 3…  which also means completely reworking episode 4…  Basically I need a great big extension. One she already told me I can’t have.

And Audrey’s not thrilled.

Audrey: I'm worried because I think episode three is one of the strongest episodes… You know, we've also spent a lot of time on it… you’ve spent a tremendous amount of time on it. And you know, we care about Judy… And I worry that it's gonna feel,  I don't know, like too watered down or not authentic or just not as interesting…

In this series, I’ve talked a lot about what documentarians need to do their jobs. I’ve talked less about what bosses and distributors need to do theirs.

Audrey: Despite the fact that we're like a non-profit, we're still a business right? We're not immune to capitalism, like we operate within it.

Don’t I know it?

Audrey: It's really hard to get people to listen to a podcast  It's really hard to get people to listen to four, five, six episodes of a podcast… but to that end, like figuring out the business model is really tricky. At the end of the day, the number of monthly downloads or total downloads is one way that we think about success. 

Audrey and Radiotopia need the series to go out so that they can run ads on it, so they can at least recoup what they've spent on production. And they need the series to be interesting enough that listeners stay til the end… so they can sell those ads… 

Audrey notes that cutting the ‘meat’ out of Judy’s story means I’ll need to figure out some alternate payoff for the audience.

Audrey: We have to be pretty sure that this is something that will be intriguing enough to get them through the door for the first thing, right? And then good enough that they'll stick around. I think that for me, this episode is like one storyline that feels like it has real stakes.

Jess: I mean, I just feel like that is prioritizing the audience over Judy.

Audrey: It is.

Jess: But like Judy is telling us she doesn’t want us to know what happens. So I go ahead, then we're really prioritizing the audience over the person who the audience is supposed to care about in listening to the story.

Audrey: I do think what is… this is what is hard is that what is compelling for a listener sometimes is not good for the subject.

But she concedes that if cutting half of the episode is what I absolutely want, if postponing the series launch is what I need, she’ll make it work. 

What this means for my bank account is another story… 

Jess:  I mean, for me, the implications would be four months unpaid where I don’t get more money, right?

Audrey: Yeah I think that’s the piece I want to be very clear, is that when we started working on this, we, we established a budget, that is the budget I have…um… 

<music in: eerie vocalizations>

I stare at my online bank statement… to see if… how… I’m gonna afford to keep working on this project…   

I do have some savings… I can take on more freelance work… It will be tight, but by evening, Audrey lets me know she’s sorted everything out on Radiotopia’s end. We’ll officially launch early in the new year. I take a deep breath. And then I hit delete… on 8 months of time and energy,  and free time… and what for some listeners might have been the most interesting part of this series… 

<music out> 

Maybe now you’re thinking, wait a sec, I’ve already heard episode 3! I’ve heard Judy’s whole story. The truth… is that… actually, you didn’t. 

At least, you didn’t hear the same episode I played in the room for Judy, Ernesto and Michael at our listening session.

You’re never going to hear that episode. 

It’s my documentary series. And that’s what I’ve decided.

<music in: snipping sound and drumroll>

I spend the next 4 months re-doing episode three… and episode four, and ultimately deciding at the last minute to add in one more episode for good measure…

The first order of business is to come up with a plan for how to fill the new space in Episode 3, left after cutting more than half of Judy’s story.

I decide the move is to flesh out the character of Michael… 

<music out> 

Michael: Yeah I wasn’t trying to hit on you or anything like that.

So I add in the storyline about me thinking he’s hitting on me, and my own messiness balancing the line between professional and friend. 

Of course, part of this means circling back with Michael to see if he’s up for the new addition. Lucky for me, Michael is an easygoing guy.

Michael: You know, sometimes we didn't understand each other… but it was still good… 

Then again, Michael is perhaps saving his energy for bigger projects…

Michael: I've been out of work for like two months. I got laid off, So I’m—

Jess: Oh no!

Michaell. So I depleted mostly all my funds now. Yeah, I think got like 1200$ to my name right now. And we owe the landlord.. rent money right now… Yeah. But my book is my book um is about to come out next week… 

I didn’t have enough time in earlier episodes to get into this too much, but ever since I met him, Michael has been hard at work writing a book…. 

Michael: Cause I want to really public speak and go around the world and.. ‘cause I like touching people and it makes them feel good at the same time...

Jess: I know you do…

 Michael: It’s like a win-win situation. And then I can tell people about the book… Yeah, we're trying to go global with this… Yeah so, I'm officially off of parole now, so that's good.

Jess: Oh, that's good, congratulations. 

Michael: So everything is over now. I could get my passport back. So that way when I do my book tour and all that, I won't have no restrictions… 

Jess: Oh amazing!

Michael: I paid 7,000 for everything. 

Jess: Okay, so you're paying them to publish your book.

Michael: Yeah, they publish it, and they got a marketing promoter, too. I paid for all of that. For the book tour, everything.. 

<music in>

Maybe you remember that the title of this series came from an email I got from a successful television producer. She said she was looking for “shocking, heartbreaking, and transformative personal stories” for her next big docuseries. Somehow, I imagine Michael’s publishers using the same canned language in their marketing plan for his book… 

Michael: ‘Cause my publishing company, they said, “this is going to be a bestseller. We are so happy. We are part of this.” They put it on… Barnes & Noble, Amazon, there's gonna be in bookstores, Walmart, Target, all different places all over the world, different markets. Yeah, not just the United States… 

Jess: Yeah, I really hope they didn’t scam you. 

Michael: Nah, I don’t think they did, yeah. I did the reviews and everything before I dealt with them.

It’s clear that Michael still believes in the power of the personal story. Believes in it so much that he’s willing to invest his own money, to go into debt, to tell his own story. 

Meanwhile, I’m over here having burned through 50K trying to tell a story about stories, and the business behind them.

<music out> 

When I share the new episode 3 with Audrey, she still thinks the old ‘spicier’ version of the episode was better…

Audrey: It's more revealing, it's more complicated, it's like realer because it, in a lot of ways it because it's like what played out, you know. I think what listeners are gonna get is a version that's just a little bit more, I don't know… but then I'm sort of like, maybe they don't, maybe they just like, won't know what they're missing, and it'll be fine. 

<beat>

 Jess: Hi! I got your extra hot coffee. 

Judy: Hello, love. 

Jess: Hi! 

Around 7 weeks before the series is released, I meet up with Judy to play her the new version of Episode 3. Together, we go through the script, line by line… 

Judy: Can we use another word other than elderly?

Jess: Yeah

Judy: Can we use the word mature?

The changes Judy asks for this time around are pretty laid back. I guess it’s cause the new version of the episode goes into a lot less detail about her life… since, as per her request, I cut everything that happens to her after she moves from the church shelter to the one run by the city— so there’s nothing about what happened with her court case, or her eviction, or the stuff in her apartment.

Jess: When I started this project, the whole idea that I had was like I want everybody to feel like they're getting what they want out of the process. And the thing that I have realized is that, this project that I had for us to have a win win situation, it was a little bit doomed to fail.

Judy: It required a monumental amount of money, for one thing. 

Jess: Yes, but it also required us having the same goal

Judy: No, you know, my input was to tell my story of what it's like to be unstably housed . And that's basically what my goal was. So in a sense, we don't have different goals.

Jess: Right. But my project isn't about that. And the thing that I've realized is that it's not going to be fair. 

Judy: But it should be truthful. 

Jess: Yeah. But I think it's truthful to say it's not going to be fair, because I'm in charge. And I’m also the one doing all the cards. I’m the one that is doing the edits, I'm the one that knows about radio, I'm the one that has the platform, I'm the one that's not homeless.  I constructed a truth that misses a lot in order to tell the story that I wanted to tell. And I could have told a million other stories that maybe were more aligned with this story about homelessness, or a story about Michael’s public speaking class or any other number of things. But like, I'm the main character, it's my story. And I think that I deluded myself, and maybe also deluded you, by letting you feel that we were doing this really together, and that we were collaborating, when ultimately, like, I'm gonna publish this now.

Judy: Episode 4 has not been done yet though, right? 

Jess: I'm working on it.

Judy: So will I get to hear it? I mean… 

Jess: There's probably not going to be enough time, because your life is chaotic. My life is chaotic, but there needs to be a product… You know, I have to do it on time. There's not time for infinite edits. 

Judy: That’s totally understandable. It’s like doing a painting. You know, you start it and at some point you make the decision that it’s finished.

This is the conceit of narrative… that the story can be finished. Of course Judy’s story isn’t finished. 

Judy: No, it's ongoing. 

Jess: But the product—

But here, I’m the one who gets to decide where it ends

<music in>

Judy: Yeah. The listener is probably thinking to myself, well, is she going to get housed, or is she not going to get housed, or? In the end, the listener is going to be your judge. You're leaving the listener hanging about the, um, status of my life situation. 

Jess: But I kind of like that. I kind of like that.

Judy: It's a little confusing though..

Jess: Yeah, but I think I like that too.

Judy: Yeah.

Jess: Yeah.

I

I thought I wanted to make documentaries that were transformative and meaningful for the people involved.

<music out> 

And look, I still do. But if I’m honest, a big part of me also wants the success, accolades and career milestones that come with making a series for a reputed network.

And maybe that’s been clear to you for a while now, given just how much of this series has been me narrating my experience of making this thing. 

But that’s the “holy grail in podcasting,” right? To be a relatable host, someone to latch onto. This series wouldn’t have sold without a strong main character! And if I wasn’t going to give you the juice of my subjects’ stories if they didn’t also want to give it to you, that main character was always gonna be me. 

And while I changed some of the rules to make the process of telling my subjects’ stories more fair, more ethical… my subjects were never my target audience. My target audience was you… 

So, was this series shocking, heartbreaking, and transformative enough for you? Or would you have preferred this more detailed, more spicy narrative, of the episode you never heard? 

What kept you listening all the way through? 

<music in: vocalizations>

And what do you plan on doing now, with this story Ernesto, Michael, Judy and I have shared with you?

FX/ MUX out

Jess: I have cash for you

Judy: Basically these are little tweaks, I’m not saying anything has to be majorly revised.

Jess: Mhm mhm.

Judy: Just points of clarification that I think will improve your presentation. 

[rifling sound] 

Judy: Oh thank you so much…

Jess: You’re welcome

Judy: It's so appreciated. I really need this help. 

Jess: I know it’s not enough. 

Judy: I really need this help. I appreciate it greatly. 

Jess: Yeah, I appreciate you coming in to here and spending this time—

Judy: Look, I want you to succeed. I want this to be a launch for your career. 

Jess: I think it will…

Judy: [whispered] Ok.

<music in: “Success in the Making” by Michael Key aka Harmonie> 

[Lyrics by Harmonie]

Success success, success in the making

It’s all about success, got no time for no faking

Success success, success in the making.

It’s all about success, got no time for no faking

Success to me is living the dream 

With everything I want, and everything I need

My big picture’s growing, my cash flow is flowing

Rising stars constantly shining

Seekers of success constantly coming into glory

Before I finish, I tell another story

Life unknown and the story untold

So just sit back, and let me unfold

<music out: “Success in the Making” by Michael Key aka Harmonie > 

That was an excerpt of the track “Success in the Making” by Michael who uses the moniker ‘Harmonie’ with an ‘ie’ for his music. 

And from Radiotopia Presents, this was Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative. 

<music in, “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“Cmon now, I find

It's nicer to be kind

Than to be cold all the time

To be free to call you mine

And be able to see through it

I’m a fraud, you always knew it

Even if I don’t do it on purpose. 

But that’s just on the surface 

Getting deeper makes me nervous, 

But resisting doesn’t service me anymore.”

I’m Jess Shane— I wrote and produced this episode. I’ve said it before, but there was a truly incredible team behind me who all made this thing possible! 

Sara Nics: I’m Sara Nics and I was an editor on this series.

Sara Nics worked closely with me on every episode. Did you know that editors often work double-duty as life coaches? Thanks Sara. 

Audrey Mardavich: I’m Audrey Mardavich, I’m the Executive Producer of Radiotopia.

Yooree Losordo: Hi I’m Yooree Losordo, the director Managing Producer of Radiotopia

Audrey and Yooree! What incredible sports! Two people who do really care about the art of podcasting. Thank you for trusting me enough to let me record all our meetings and turn you into characters. 

Michelle Macklem: I’m Michelle Macklem. The sound designer and mix engineer of this series.

Did this show not sound fantastic? Especially considering that I recorded like 25% of it over the phone or my voice memo app? Such skill! What an ear! Michelle also brought plenty of editorial ideas to the production. Like that behind-the-scenes moment at Ernesto’s fashion show. Chef’s kiss. 

Eliza Niemi: Hi, I’m Eliza, I composed music for this series. The song that plays in the credits is called “Flip” and it’s off my EP Glass.

Huge fan of Eliza’s music, on this series and beyond. I highly recommend her discography in its entirety. Get it on bandcamp, baby!

Additional music was composed by Michelle Macklem. 

This episode’s contributing editor was Kalli Anderson— thank you Kalli for swooping in in the final moments with essential notes!

Thank you also to Eleanor McDowall, Christina Hardinge, Allie Graham, Alex Juhasz, Kaitlin Prest, Chioke I’Anson, Evan Cartwright, Ivana Dizdar, Kate Sutherland, and Mathew Pitt, who all were essential sounding boards and gave me generous and necessary notes in the final stages of this project. 

And of course this series wouldn’t have been possible without the trust and thoughtfulness of my documentary subjects, Ernesto, Michael and Judy, whose vibrant selves could never fit into the confines of any documentary.

Stay tuned on my socials and Radiotopia’s, because the show is having a few events in the upcoming months— conversations about this series, and where we want to go from here. 

Our episode art was by Justin Broadbent. And this reporting was supported by the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists.

I’d also like to thank the extended Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative team, without whom you may not have heard about this project. For PRX marketing: Gretchen Borzi, David Cotrone, Sher Delva, Apu Goteh, and Maggie Gourville. For PRX sponsorship: Audrey Davidson, Melissa Garcia-Houle, Carolyn Willander, and Jeanne Yeh.

Finally, I want to say that this series was created in response to a lot of reading, screenings, and conversations with people much smarter and more well-read than me. I’ve made a bibliography of books, articles, films, and artworks that inspired me while making and conceiving of this project, and have made it available on my show page at radiotopiapresents.fm, for anyone who wants to learn more and dig deeper into some of the questions I hope I’m leaving you with. 

And thank you again for listening.

Jess: This is the end of my budget. I— next time we meet, I can’t pay you

Judy: Don’t worry about it. Fine… Of course if you sell this—

Jess: I already sold it… 

Judy: You sold the whole project? Before they saw it? 

Jess: That's how I've been paid…

Judy: Somebody else might buy it. 

Jess: It's true, somebody else might buy it. 

Judy: Alright, keep me in mind. Don't forget about me.

Jess: OK [laughs].

<music out> 

<music in: “Flip” by Eliza Niemi> 

[Eliza Niemi Lyrics]

“I’m so sorry that I’m fake sometimes

It’s just how I’ve been trained 

And I know it doesn’t justify

My opaque little lies”